Date: Fri, 7 May 2021 20:45:47 +0300 From: Rozhuk Ivan <rozhuk.im@gmail.com> To: David Chisnall <theraven@FreeBSD.org> Cc: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: WSLg update on 1-5-2021 - BSD / WSL Message-ID: <20210507204547.7fe35dcb@rimwks.local> In-Reply-To: <f8ee3eb1-c0d3-941b-8e9c-1512c825c5e2@FreeBSD.org> References: <CAA-K0n%2BsJ%2BKmc3LitPiX_RLxcKv8aUcY9=cRiM7mx58NY5xs-A@mail.gmail.com> <0b3d6049-f6eb-f9d4-5f20-f09ac666e949@nomadlogic.org> <92a81582-7bd4-b9f1-04b6-cbcd5eb77893@FreeBSD.org> <20210507131741.47f3aab9@rimwks.local> <f8ee3eb1-c0d3-941b-8e9c-1512c825c5e2@FreeBSD.org>
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On Fri, 7 May 2021 14:31:39 +0100 David Chisnall <theraven@FreeBSD.org> wrote: > >> Whether Microsoft or the FreeBSD project should do the work really > >> comes down to who has more to gain. Windows 10 is installed on > >> around a 1.3 billion devices and any of these users can run Ubuntu > >> with a single click in the Microsoft Store, so it feels as if the > >> FreeBSD project has a lot to gain from being able to reach them. =20 > >=20 > > Make job for free - make more money for MS. > > Make win10 to support more features to increase windows value... =20 >=20 > How much money? 'Making money' doesn't just mean money coming in, it=20 > means more money coming in than is going out. Adding features to a=20 > product costs money. How many people will buy Windows 10 if it has a=20 > good FreeBSD compatibility layer who wouldn't buy it without one? I=20 > very much doubt that this is a sufficient number to cover the cost of=20 > the engineering work. This is MS management problems. Adding support WSL code will not make FBSD users happy, there is mush more actual issues that require attention. IMHO. > >> If you assume > >> that 1% of people who want the feature commented, then this gives > >> around 10,000 folks who really want a FreeBSD equivalent of WSL. =20 > >=20 > > They give money to MS, they ask MS to do job for money. =20 >=20 > They give money to MS, they get a Windows 10 license in return. They=20 > are happy to buy Windows without a FreeBSD compat layer. They are=20 > buying Windows on the basis of some subset of a large number of=20 > features. The lack of a FreeBSD compat layer is not preventing them=20 > from buying Windows, they have not shown that this is the > deal-breaker feature. Because MS is monopoly on OS market. For most peolpes there is no other way to buy PC/notebook without windows, and no other way to use some software that was written for windows only. > Microsoft, like any other POTS software vendor, will prioritise > features that impact the most customers. There are things on User > Voice with tens or hundreds of thousands of votes and these tend to > be prioritised. Something with under a hundred votes is so niche that > it's only going to be a target of investment if it impacts another > product or service. =46rom mine experience MS listen only custommers from big b2b and b2gov. Millions of users hate post win7 gui - see no reaction from ms. =20 > >> It's pretty hard to justify a feature in Windows that only 0.001% > >> of Windows users will use. If you want to change that arithmetic, > >> then next time your organisation is renewing M365 or Azure service > >> subscriptions, tell your sales rep that FreeBSD support is > >> important to your company. =20 > >=20 > > There is many other hosting services that have FBSD support. > > So this is MS/azure problem. =20 >=20 > Azure already officially supports FreeBSD and we have contributed a > load of code to improve that support over the years. From the > numbers I've seen, I strongly suspect that we've spent more on it > than we've gained in revenue. Ok, thanks! > You are asking Microsoft to throw money at a thing that will > definitely cost time and money (and comes with the associated > opportunity cost, because developer time spent on this features is > developer time not spent on other features) but with no clear > indication that it will increase revenue. Effectively, you are > asking us to do work for free and you're also doing so quite rudely. No, I do not ask MS for anything. If MS want something - patches/pull requests/sponsoring are welcome! > Personally, I'd love to have a FreeBSD compat layer. The license > would even make it possible to embed the FreeBSD kernel in Windows > and so get the best aspects of WSL1 and WSL2. From a business > perspective; however, I can't argue that this would be a great use of > engineer time. There are a load of features that would positively > impact a lot more users that would be higher priority. Same for FBSD. FBSD have very limited peoples power and more prioritized tasks, at least from my point of view. May be you luck to find some one who can, have time and motivation to do th= is. > If you want this to happen and you want Microsoft to do it, then you=20 > need to help people inside the company provide this business case.=20 > Things that don't help include: >=20 > - I want it. > - You suck for not doing it. > - It would make you money in unspecified ways. >=20 > Things that do help include: >=20 > - We are a FreeBSD shop with 1,000 workstations, we would switch to=20 > Windows on the desktop with this feature. > - We are a large cloud customer with 10,000 VMs deployed, we would=20 > switch to Azure with this feature. > - We are a Windows shop with a load of desktops but are planning to=20 > switch to Macs because we want a BSD-style userland. This is examples of negative motivation for this community. :)
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