Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 03:18:41 -0600 From: "Delmir Fernandes" <delmir@enteract.com> To: <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org>, <drew@multinet-media.com>, <notme@lvdi.net>, <bsd@inbox.org> Subject: /**** Open Source - FreeBSD Arguments ***/ Message-ID: <005001bf5827$3f906620$0200a8c0@enteract.com>
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01BF57F4.BB38ECD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is a reply to all of those that tried to answer mine earlier = questions or arguments. But first I would like to know were and how you got the message to begin = with! This also happens to be mine first time to disclose mine ideas about = open source software. I notice that many of you misunderstood mine point = by lack of interpretation from mine part. I will now try to make myself = clear by using different parts of different replies that was received = and forgive mine foreign and broken English. All previous messages (others & mine) are quoted with ">" and ">>" = respectively. So, here we go: /*** By: Mr. K. - bsd@inbox.org ***/=20 >> I am a new Linux user and always listen to others saying that FreeBSD >> is better and faster plus many large and well-known companies use >> FreeBSD. If that is so... Why is Linux so much more popular? Why does = not >> exist enough (if any) documentation on FreeBSD? How can FreeBSD be so >> much poor?=20 > > Personally I consider Linux better for home desktop use, and FreeBSD > better for server use. The drivers come out much faster for Linux, > with much more support. This would explain why linux is more popular > (there are more home users than server farmers). I also consider = Windows > better than Linux and FreeBSD for home desktop use (donning my flame > retardant suit). When I'm at home, I like to watch DVDs. I don't > want to dual boot, and I don't want to wait around a year for someone > to reverse engineer a DVD decryptor. Driver support is better for > Windows than for FreeBSD and Linux combined. That would explain why > Windows is way more popular than both of them, and will continue to = be. > > Is FreeBSD better? Yes, for some things. Is Windows? Yes, for other > things. Is Linux? Well, maybe, but not for anything I want to do :). The main intention of the questions was to compare and point out that = despite FreeBSD is better built and it does not hold the same prestige = and fame that others operating systems do.=20 When Mr. K says that he likes to watch DVDs and do not want to wait for = someone to reverse engineer a DVD decryptor, that goes against all the = reason behind the "Open Source Movement". One should not need to back = engineer nothing. Operating systems are to computers the same thing that spoken languages = are to us human. Have you ever seen someone paying just to speak a = language? Does it sound absurd? It sure does! But when it comes to = computers, some how we loose the whole sense about it. We do not only = believe it is right to pay to use an operating system, but yet, we = accept others to control it and hide its internal functions. Another strange example would be this one: Try to image that when you = bought a car the hood was locked and that maintenance was enforced by = law to be done only by authorized dealers. Holy-Molly!!! But, guest = what? Again, some how we loose the whole sense about it when it comes to = computer. And again, we not only allow corporations to own and control = our OSs (which is enforced by law), but we also let them to trap and = ambush us to use their operating systems which is somewhat described = here: /*** By: Drew Wiggins - notme@lvdi.net ***/ > ..., actually Microsoft is where it is because of an over-zealous=20 > marketing strategy that leaves buyers with no other option...the fact=20 > that the apps run on an `easy-to-use' OS helps, but if that were the=20 > only factor then several other companies would have won the OS=20 > war long ago. Most will argue that BSD isn't in competition with=20 > MS...there's no comparison. Part of living in a capitalistic world is = > having options...=20 > and as far as communism goes, <see Microsoft Marketing>.=20 > wanna see masses...subscribe to some FreeBSD mailing lists. Very good Drew! You are totally right about Microsoft's over-zealous = marketing strategy. That is the reason Microsoft is being sued because = of anti-trust laws. But you got mine idea of capitalism and communism = totally wrong. What I had in mind was to some what mimic Microsoft. What = I tried to say was if FreeBSD marketed itself better, it would be more = popular and by being more popular would bring in more resources to it. = Got it? /*** By: Drew Wiggins - notme@lvdi.net ***/ > I don't think FreeBSD is being left behind or running anywhere, it's=20 > strong enough to hold it's own ground while other OS vendors go=20 > running around chasing target markets. I don't know how else to=20 > explain this...=20 > superior os+cheap=3Dbest deal in town=20 > take it or leave it.=20 Well, I believe part of that is wrong and part is wishful thinking. Huhm... You don't think FreeBSD is being left behind!? While jokes about = Microsoft spreading to other sectors of industry are no longer jokes and = while no mere mortal know the meaning of the word FreeBSD... huhm.=20 About the: "superior os+cheap=3Dbest deal in town" - that would be = excellent, but if nobody have a clue about the deal... how beneficial = can it be? Going back to the capitalism and communism idea, what we have on the our = real world today is: (Any kind of OS) + (A lot of marketing) =3D (A common OS and a lot of = resources to the OS holder) ...Resources that if were obtained and use towards FreeBSD would make it = better... that was one of the suggestions on mine first message!!! /*** By: Drew Wiggins - notme@lvdi.net ***/ >>FreeBSD is better and faster plus many large and well-known >>companies use FreeBSD. If that is so... Why is Linux so much >>more popular? Why does not exist enough (if any) documentation >>on FreeBSD? How can FreeBSD be so much poor? > > All of this has been said before ( many times ). And in your=20 >`documentation' question lies a summary that will answer most=20 >of your questions.=20 > >1) What documentation are you referring to?=20 > - linux and windows users generally refer to things in a more=20 > general sense=20 > - users of BSD and other OS`s would have asked for=20 > documentation on installing the OS or another topic regarding=20 > the OS.=20 > *** I'm assuming that you're not looking for unix help=20 > ( because that's not really OS specific ) and there's plenty of=20 > documentation for that.=20 > *** If I asked you tell me about Windows or Linux...what=20 > would you say?...where would you start?=20 > > 2) How long did you spend looking for whatever documentation=20 > you were looking for?=20 > > - linux and windows users generally expect things to be given=20 > to them without any effort. ( easy as a mouse click, right )=20 > - in the world of BSD, a user learns real fast the best route to=20 > discovery. ( But that's a trait that is aquired through a lot of = trial=20 > and error )=20 > > *** browse the site, search the archives, read the man pages,=20 > post a `specific' question regarding the OS to questions.=20 > > <note the similarities between linux and windows users>....the linux=20 > success comes from the `generic' user base who are fed up with MS.=20 Documentation.... Any and every! Here we go again: If you want to improve FreeBSD you definitely need = more resources, and to get more resources you need to target masses = (everyone). Where did you get the idea that just because FreeBSD is an = excellent server and for sure not an OS for dumb people (As in MS OSs), = everyone should have the knowledge, time and patience to learn the = specifics about the OS? MS documentation is amazingly NOT what I am = talking about, since MS gives a hard time even to developers on their on = products. It should be way too much to ask, but the perfect = documentation should be simple and strait enough for a na=EFve user and = complete enough an expert. Example: Where is the documentation to = install a NIC? Oh... I see... It is a work in progress! It should be = done already if FreeBSD had more resources... and don't make me go over = how to get more resources, again!!! /*** By: Drew Wiggins - notme@lvdi.net ***/ >> From mine point of view FreeBSD is in the place where it is because >> it's creators want so! > > You're right...but I think most BSD users will tell you they want it=20 > that way, too.=20 Are being sarcastic? You've got to be. /*** By: Frankie Li - drew@multinet-media.com ***/ > ...However, degrading the product (as Delmir suggested) will not > do FreeBSD any good. I also disagree with Delmir's view that FreeBSD = is > a "professional only system." Two years ago, I was a normal Window 95 > ... Forgive me Frankie, but you got it all wrong. I never had the intention = to degrade FreeBSD. I was just point out ways to improve FreeBSD and I = am sure I did NOT make that clear at all... forgive me! Please reply. Please reply. Please reply. Sincerely, Delmir Fernandes delmir@hotmail.com CC: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org drew@multinet-media.com notme@lvdi.net bsd@inbox.org ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01BF57F4.BB38ECD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This is a reply to all of those that = tried to=20 answer mine earlier questions or arguments.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>But first I would like to know were and = how you got=20 the message to begin with!</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This also happens to be mine first time = to disclose=20 mine ideas about open source software. I notice that many of you = misunderstood=20 mine point by lack of interpretation from mine part. I will now try to = make=20 myself clear by using different parts of different replies that was = received and=20 forgive mine foreign and broken English.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>All previous messages (others & = mine) are=20 quoted with ">" and ">>" respectively. So, here we = go:</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>/*** By: Mr. K. - <A=20 href=3D"mailto:bsd@inbox.org">bsd@inbox.org</A> ***/ <BR>>> I am a = new Linux=20 user and always listen to others saying that FreeBSD<BR>>> is = better and=20 faster plus many large and well-known companies use<BR>>> FreeBSD. = If that=20 is so... Why is Linux so much more popular? Why does not<BR>>> = exist=20 enough (if any) documentation on FreeBSD? How can FreeBSD be = so<BR>>> much=20 poor? <BR>><BR>> Personally I consider Linux better for home = desktop use,=20 and FreeBSD<BR>> better for server use. The drivers come out = much=20 faster for Linux,<BR>> with much more support. This would = explain why=20 linux is more popular<BR>> (there are more home users than server=20 farmers). I also consider Windows<BR>> better than Linux and = FreeBSD=20 for home desktop use (donning my flame<BR>> retardant suit). = When I'm=20 at home, I like to watch DVDs. I don't<BR>> want to dual boot, = and I=20 don't want to wait around a year for someone<BR>> to reverse engineer = a DVD=20 decryptor. Driver support is better for<BR>> Windows than for = FreeBSD=20 and Linux combined. That would explain why<BR>> Windows is way = more=20 popular than both of them, and will continue to be.<BR>><BR>> Is = FreeBSD=20 better? Yes, for some things. Is Windows? Yes, for=20 other<BR>> things. Is Linux? Well, maybe, but not for = anything I=20 want to do :).</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The main intention of the questions was = to compare=20 and point out that despite FreeBSD is better built and it does not hold = the same=20 prestige and fame that others operating systems do. <BR>When Mr. K says = that he=20 likes to watch DVDs and do not want to wait for someone to reverse = engineer a=20 DVD decryptor, that goes against all the reason behind the “Open = Source=20 Movement”. One should not need to back engineer = nothing.<BR>Operating systems=20 are to computers the same thing that spoken languages are to us human. = Have you=20 ever seen someone paying just to speak a language? Does it sound absurd? = It sure=20 does! But when it comes to computers, some how we loose the whole sense = about=20 it. We do not only believe it is right to pay to use an operating = system, but=20 yet, we accept others to control it and hide its internal = functions.<BR>Another=20 strange example would be this one: Try to image that when you bought a = car the=20 hood was locked and that maintenance was enforced by law to be done only = by=20 authorized dealers. Holy-Molly!!! But, guest what? Again, some how we = loose the=20 whole sense about it when it comes to computer. And again, we not only = allow=20 corporations to own and control our OSs (which is enforced by law), but = we also=20 let them to trap and ambush us to use their operating systems which is = somewhat=20 described here:</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>/*** By: Drew Wiggins - <A=20 href=3D"mailto:notme@lvdi.net">notme@lvdi.net</A> ***/<BR>> ..., = actually=20 Microsoft is where it is because of an over-zealous <BR>> marketing = strategy=20 that leaves buyers with no other option...the fact <BR>> that the = apps run on=20 an `easy-to-use' OS helps, but if that were the <BR>> only factor = then=20 several other companies would have won the OS <BR>> war long = ago. Most=20 will argue that BSD isn't in competition with <BR>> MS...there's no=20 comparison. Part of living in a capitalistic world is <BR>> = having=20 options... <BR>> and as far as communism goes, <see Microsoft=20 Marketing>. <BR>> wanna see masses...subscribe to some FreeBSD = mailing=20 lists.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Very good Drew! You are totally right = about=20 Microsoft’s over-zealous marketing strategy. That is the reason = Microsoft is=20 being sued because of anti-trust laws. But you got mine idea of = capitalism and=20 communism totally wrong. What I had in mind was to some what mimic = Microsoft.=20 What I tried to say was if FreeBSD marketed itself better, it would be = more=20 popular and by being more popular would bring in more resources to it. = Got=20 it?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>/*** By: Drew Wiggins - <A=20 href=3D"mailto:notme@lvdi.net">notme@lvdi.net</A> ***/<BR>> I don't = think=20 FreeBSD is being left behind or running anywhere, it's <BR>> strong = enough to=20 hold it's own ground while other OS vendors go <BR>> running around = chasing=20 target markets. I don't know how else to <BR>> explain this... = <BR>>=20 superior os+cheap=3Dbest deal in town <BR>> take it or leave it. = </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Well, I believe part of that is wrong = and part is=20 wishful thinking.<BR>Huhm... You don’t think FreeBSD is being left = behind!?=20 While jokes about Microsoft spreading to other sectors of industry are = no longer=20 jokes and while no mere mortal know the meaning of the word FreeBSD... = huhm.=20 <BR>About the: "superior os+cheap=3Dbest deal in town" - that would be = excellent,=20 but if nobody have a clue about the deal... how beneficial can it = be?<BR>Going=20 back to the capitalism and communism idea, what we have on the our real = world=20 today is:<BR>(Any kind of OS) + (A lot of marketing) =3D (A common OS = and a lot of=20 resources to the OS holder)<BR>...Resources that if were obtained and = use=20 towards FreeBSD would make it better... that was one of the suggestions = on mine=20 first message!!!</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>/*** By: Drew Wiggins - <A=20 href=3D"mailto:notme@lvdi.net">notme@lvdi.net</A> = ***/<BR>>>FreeBSD is=20 better and faster plus many large and well-known<BR>>>companies = use=20 FreeBSD. If that is so... Why is Linux so much<BR>>>more popular? = Why does=20 not exist enough (if any) documentation<BR>>>on FreeBSD? How can = FreeBSD=20 be so much poor?<BR>><BR>> All of this has been said = before (=20 many times ). And in your <BR>>`documentation' question lies a = summary=20 that will answer most <BR>>of your questions. <BR>><BR>>1) What = documentation are you referring to? <BR>> - linux and = windows=20 users generally refer to things in a more <BR>> = general=20 sense <BR>> - users of BSD and other OS`s would = have asked=20 for <BR>> documentation on installing the OS or = another=20 topic regarding <BR>> the OS. = <BR>> =20 *** I'm assuming that you're not looking for unix help=20 <BR>> ( because that's not really OS specific ) and = there's=20 plenty of <BR>> documentation for that.=20 <BR>> *** If I asked you tell me about Windows or=20 Linux...what <BR>> would you say?...where would you = start?=20 <BR>><BR>> 2) How long did you spend looking for whatever = documentation=20 <BR>> you were looking for?=20 <BR>><BR>> - linux and windows users = generally=20 expect things to be given <BR>> to them = without any=20 effort. ( easy as a mouse click, right ) <BR>> - in the world = of BSD, a=20 user learns real fast the best route to <BR>> = discovery. ( But that's a trait that is aquired through a lot of trial=20 <BR>> and error )=20 <BR>><BR>> *** browse the site, search the = archives, read the man pages, <BR>> post a = `specific'=20 question regarding the OS to questions. <BR>><BR>> <note the=20 similarities between linux and windows users>....the linux <BR>> = success=20 comes from the `generic' user base who are fed up with MS. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Documentation.... Any and = every!<BR>Here we go=20 again: If you want to improve FreeBSD you definitely need more = resources, and to=20 get more resources you need to target masses (everyone). Where did you = get the=20 idea that just because FreeBSD is an excellent server and for sure not = an OS for=20 dumb people (As in MS OSs), everyone should have the knowledge, time and = patience to learn the specifics about the OS? MS documentation is = amazingly NOT=20 what I am talking about, since MS gives a hard time even to developers = on their=20 on products. It should be way too much to ask, but the perfect = documentation=20 should be simple and strait enough for a na=EFve user and complete = enough an=20 expert. Example: Where is the documentation to install a NIC? Oh... I = see... It=20 is a work in progress! It should be done already if FreeBSD had more=20 resources... and don’t make me go over how to get more resources,=20 again!!!</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR> /*** By: Drew Wiggins - = <A=20 href=3D"mailto:notme@lvdi.net">notme@lvdi.net</A> ***/<BR>>> From = mine point=20 of view FreeBSD is in the place where it is because<BR>>> it's = creators=20 want so!<BR>><BR>> You're right...but I think most BSD users will = tell you=20 they want it <BR>> that way, too. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Are being sarcastic? You’ve got = to be.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>/*** By: Frankie Li – <A=20 href=3D"mailto:drew@multinet-media.com">drew@multinet-media.com</A> = ***/<BR>>=20 ...However, degrading the product (as Delmir suggested) will not<BR>> = do=20 FreeBSD any good. I also disagree with Delmir's view that FreeBSD=20 is<BR>> a "professional only system." Two years ago, I was a = normal=20 Window 95<BR>> ...</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Forgive me Frankie, but you got it all = wrong. I=20 never had the intention to degrade FreeBSD. I was just point out ways to = improve=20 FreeBSD and I am sure I did NOT make that clear at all... forgive=20 me!</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Please reply.<BR>Please = reply.<BR>Please=20 reply.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sincerely,</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Delmir Fernandes<BR><A=20 href=3D"mailto:delmir@hotmail.com">delmir@hotmail.com</A></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>CC:<BR><A=20 href=3D"mailto:freebsd-questions@freebsd.org">freebsd-questions@freebsd.o= rg</A><BR><A=20 href=3D"mailto:drew@multinet-media.com">drew@multinet-media.com</A><BR><A= =20 href=3D"mailto:notme@lvdi.net">notme@lvdi.net</A><BR><A=20 href=3D"mailto:bsd@inbox.org">bsd@inbox.org</A></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01BF57F4.BB38ECD0-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message
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