Date: 13 Aug 2002 18:35:10 -0600 From: John-David Childs <nospamposter@nterprise.net> To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Oh man I'm going to get flamed Message-ID: <1029285313.20421.187.camel@lohr.digitalglobe.com> In-Reply-To: <20020803004445.GA11182@branwen.sfo.geekhouse.net> References: <1631.192.168.1.10.1028329834.squirrel@email.unixhideout.com> <20020802194944.R95370-100000@earl-grey.cloud9.net> <2534.192.168.1.10.1028334913.squirrel@email.unixhideout.com> <20020803004445.GA11182@branwen.sfo.geekhouse.net>
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I was going to let this thread by, but I just can't help it.
I've been using FreeBSD for almost eight years. Unfortunately, I
haven't been able to contribute as much as I'd like...I keep thinking
that someday soon this will change, especially as I get more and more
pissed at the holier than thou attitude of most people on the questions
and stable lists (as referenced by the example below).
If you like FreeBSD because it's a niche OS that no one else you work
with knows, or it makes you kewl, or you think it gives you job
security, or you like the little devil, press delete now. If you like
FreeBSD because the VM rocks, the ports/packages system kicks a$$, or
the (until recently) excruciatingly close scrutiny of MFC'd patches and
security issues, and you believe you have a civic duty to "show them the
way", then you're the audience I'm addressing.
Plain and simple...the reason that Linux is used by 10 people (I'm
probably massively underestimating) for every FreeBSD user (not counting
Apple's marketing campaign) has NOTHING to do with whether it's a better
OS. It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that Linux is easier to
install *and maintain* than FreeBSD...and most responses on the
questions/stable lists seem to think that's ok ("let the idiots use
Linux, the people who know use *BSD"). The problem with that thinking
is that if "no one" (term used loosely) uses *BSD, then
1) getting a user-base large enough to effectively trouble-shoot/improve
the OS becomes difficult. If an up-and-coming programmer/hacker is
looking ahead to which OS is likely to land them a job...it's not going
to be Free/Open/NetBSD.
2) getting driver support from commercial entities is next to
impossible. If there aren't enough users to justify demand, it isn't
going to be (cost) effective to write/support it.
3) getting support to install it as a server OS in medium-large
(especially non-ISP) based businesses is next to impossible. While *BSD
may have scored some initial successes, and Apple's support of BSD is
admirable (but Apple has always been considered a "niche" player, and
has fsckd-up more "initiatives" than I can count), most corporate
managers whose jobs are on the line will ask themselves "If the shit
hits the fan...".
Less users = less admins = less programmers = less (corporate) support =
less installations = less demand = less users =
Granted...I don't want any of the *BSD's to become a RedHat behemoth,
but I would like to not have cream pie thrown in my face every time I
suggest a FreeBSD server. Five years ago, when *BSD and Linux were
roughly neck and neck, it wasn't that hard to sell *BSD on technical
merits. Now...it's all about who will support it when I get hit by a
truck. How easy is it to set up? How easy is it (compared to Linux,
Solaris, SGI, AIX, HPUX, etc) to install and administrate? Can it do
clusters? Can it (natively) participate in a SAN? Is there a
commercial package for VLAN support? How 'bout a commercial firewall?
(Yes, I know and you know that ipf/ipfw/TIS does the job, but once we
leave the company the next admin either has to spend days/weeks learning
ipf/ipfw or s/he'll trash it immediately, bad-mouthing your stupid
decisions all the way up the management chain).
And it all starts with a (relatively) easy to use installer (sysinstall
has gotten MUCH better, but still has too many ways to get lost in
TABS/ESC/whoops and still looks infantile to other text-based
installers), and at least the option for a workstation install (not a
"instant workstation" port, which could take hours or days to
compile/install, but an out-of-the-CD installation of Gnome or KDE with
(or without, by choice) popular options (Evolution,
OpenOfffice/Abiword+Gnumeric, etc)). And yes, a "dummy-fied" package
upgrader like RedHat Updater or MandrakeUpdate (which friggin rocks when
you have to update 50 machines across an enterprise).
BSD'ers have always been a finicky lot, and have always preferred the
RTFM/do-it-yourself approach. That's great...to a point...but
eventually will relegate us to the land of A/UX, CP/M, and OS/2 (now
there's a niche player). "You decide which is right, and which is an
illusion."
As requested, replies are redirected to freebsd-chat. I'm going to see
about getting some "official" time to work on the installer, or the
docs, or both. Replies directly to my address will be /dev/nulled
because of the list spam collectors...those of you who "know" will be
able to find me :-)
--
John-David Childs (JC612) Enterprise Internet Solutions
Systems Administration 9616 Pecos St, Thornton CO 80260
& Network Engineering A fourth .sig line is a waste!
On Fri, 2002-08-02 at 18:44, Jim Mock wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Aug 2002 at 20:35:13 -0400, Mike wrote:
> > > On Fri, 2 Aug 2002, Mike wrote:
> > >> Stick with videos.. Please. --
> > >
> > > Very funny. You mean "videoconferencing." And anyways, there is an
> > > expression: "The best of both worlds," you know?
> >
> > "videoconferencing."
> > It's two words. Not one.
> > I know all about you. Your all about SPAM. Besides, ask a stupid
> > question
>
> That would be "You're". If you're going to flame him for
> "videoconferencing" at least spell shit right otherwise you end up
> looking even more stupid than you did for flaming him in the first
> place.
>
> > get a stupid answer. you know? At least get a decent name for this
> > FreeBSD os you want to chop into linux and make it so any sweaty wife
> > beating greaseball can run a "Server"
>
> Enough already. Take this nonsense off list if you want to have a
> bitchfest. There's enough mail that comes through here without having
> to scrape through this garbage too.
>
> - jim
>
> --
> jim mock <mij@soupnazi.org> jim@FreeBSD.org
>
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