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Date:      Fri, 25 Jan 2002 16:26:38 -0700
From:      Nate Williams <nate@yogotech.com>
To:        Daniel Eischen <eischen@pcnet1.pcnet.com>
Cc:        Nate Williams <nate@yogotech.com>, Terry Lambert <tlambert2@mindspring.com>, Dan Eischen <eischen@vigrid.com>, k Macy <kip_macy@yahoo.com>, Peter Wemm <peter@wemm.org>, Julian Elischer <julian@vicor-nb.com>, arch@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: KSE question
Message-ID:  <15441.59822.481182.325298@caddis.yogotech.com>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.1020125181435.4674C-100000@pcnet1.pcnet.com>
References:  <15441.58187.656443.659186@caddis.yogotech.com> <Pine.SUN.3.91.1020125181435.4674C-100000@pcnet1.pcnet.com>

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> > > > > Interesting.  I think we only care about FPU state
> > > > > during signal deliver and preemptions though, and in
> > > > > that case, the kernel can just pass us the "FPU used"
> > > > > flag and/or "FPU format" along with the interrupted
> > > > > context.
> > > > 
> > > > There's lots of talk about using this 'FPU used' flag, but at least my
> > > > read of things from the long discussion before was that it may not be
> > > > possible to implement this on the x86 architectures we currently
> > > > support.
> > > > 
> > > > It sounds like a great idea, *IF* if can be done.
> > > 
> > > The kernel knows if the FPU has been used and it also knows
> > > the format (x87 vs SSE/XMM).  As long as the FPU context
> > > comes from the kernel, then it can also tell us whether
> > > it is valid and it's format.
> > 
> > Right, but this has a huge effect on the userlands threads scheduler,
> > since multiple threads can be active during one time-slice, so the
> > userland scheduler will have no way of knowing which thread used the
> > FPU.  (At least, not w/out making a system call, defeating most of the
> > advantages of having userland threads...)
> 
> I think it only matters when threads are preempted or trap.

With KSE's, won't threads be pre-empted?  (I guess they won't unless you
get an upcall from the kernel, so the flag could get set.)

> As long as the kernel can tell the difference between
> preempted/trapped (kernel) threads, then it can copy
> or not copy the FPU state out to the per-thread mailbox
> and flag the FPU state accordingly.

Good point.

> Can't we treat normal system calls as we would library routines (if
> you call a function then shouldn't the compiler assume the FPU state
> could be trashed and be forced to save and restore FPU state that it
> needs?).

This is much less effecient, since the kernel normally doesn't touch the
FPU state.  (FPU operations in the kernel are illegal currently.)


Nate

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