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Date:      Wed, 6 Mar 2002 11:46:53 -0700
From:      Nate Williams <nate@yogotech.com>
To:        Terry Lambert <tlambert2@mindspring.com>
Cc:        Nate Williams <nate@yogotech.com>, Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>, Kenneth Culver <culverk@alpha.yumyumyum.org>, "Steve B." <steveb99@earthlink.net>, "Eugene L. Vorokov" <vel@bugz.infotecs.ru>, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: C vs C++
Message-ID:  <15494.25629.4763.761844@caddis.yogotech.com>
In-Reply-To: <3C8661EB.934CC478@mindspring.com>
References:  <20020305164151.T5854-100000@alpha.yumyumyum.org> <3C8529DA.FA8ABCE@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20020306073237.00cd0b00@localhost> <3C8659BC.C2FD35ED@mindspring.com> <15494.23436.196349.224108@caddis.yogotech.com> <3C8661EB.934CC478@mindspring.com>

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> > I can write C/C++/Java as good or better than most, and Java allows me
> > to get more done in a shorter amount of time than any other language.
> > And, not only that, my resulting programs are more reliable and bugfree
> > since I can spend more time worrying about the program, and not the
> > language itself.
> 
> Your "resulting programs" are subjective to you.

True.

> If you were the person tasked with doing the project, and I needed
> these attributes on the resulting code (likely), then Java would
> probably be the language of choice.  But that's subjective to you.

Agreed, although my experience are similar to others who have done both
C, C++, and Java programs I've spoken with.

> > I'm not saying that other languages don't also exhibit these
> > characteristics, but C++ is one of those languages that constantly gets
> > in the way.  Rather than spending time solving the problem, I spend more
> > time worrying about the pitfalls of the language...
> 
> Again, that's subjective to you.  I've been doing C++ for
> about 20 years now

I find that *really* hard to believe, since C++ hasn't been out for that
long. :) :) :)

(I've got Stroustrup's book next to me, and it wasn't even started until
'85, and I don't know when the first C++ compiler became publically
available.)

> prefer to code in C still, for most
> things, but was able to finish ~22,000 lines of code in a
> period of four weeks

# of lines of code doesn't mean much to me.  I can generate lots of
lines of code too, but it doesn't mean they are necessary.  (The term I
heard to describe over-engineering a solution was 'gold-plating').

I'm not saying you've done that, but it happens.

> This is incredibly ironic to me, as the C++ code in
> question was a reimplementation of the Java APIs necessary
> for support of one of Sun's API designs for Java in C++,

Yeah, yeah, yeah.  You redid JavaMail.  I thought JavaMail was poor, and
you did it in 4 weeks.  I did all of what I needed it to do in an
afternoon, so *nah-nah-nah*. :P

> The other advantage is that the C++ code ran in a known,
> deterministic amount of memory on an embedded system;
> Java VM's, even Kaffe, seem to want to take at least 8M
> of memory.

Kaffe wasn't a good implementation of the VM.  However, I will state
that the minimum size was quite large.  (No worse than most other
interpreted languages).  However, it didn't have to get any bigger.  I
had a server that server 400 real-time clients running in under 24MB on
a Sparc/RISC platform.

> The same project also served to show that a Cathedral
> builds significantly better code than a Bazaar.

You're not going to get *any* argument from me on that one (I agree with
you), but I'm *NOT* going to get sucked into that discussion. :)



Nate

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