Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2022 22:17:37 +0000 From: spellberg_robert <emailrob@risebroadband.net> To: David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: my isp has trouble with its own dhcp assignment Message-ID: <184d5515-80af-50b3-593e-6bc379b441df@risebroadband.net> In-Reply-To: <ec77cabe-4436-a3da-cbb1-367f481413c9@holgerdanske.com> References: <e25c9c9d-9e6a-c349-d04e-4103b1256f24@risebroadband.net> <ec77cabe-4436-a3da-cbb1-367f481413c9@holgerdanske.com>
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On 10/18/22 12:47 AM, David Christensen wrote:
> On 10/17/22 12:41, spellberg_robert wrote:
>> 22_oct_17_mon 19.35.utc
>>
>>
>>
>> howdy , folks ; long time , no post .
>> why ?
>> because , when compared to 20 - 40 years ago , when i --loved-- it ,
>> email has become the most_royal of pains to use .
>>
>> please forgive this brief digression ; it is relevant .
>>
>> i spent 6 hours , yesterday ,
>> typing a detailed account of the symptoms and
>> the eventual identification of that
>> which i believe to be the actual problem
>> with my isp's dhcp server .
>>
>> when sending ,
>> i got the password wrong [ correct chars , wrong order ] .
>> believing that i was closing the dialog_box for the password ,
>> i closed the composition window .
>> after wrestling w/ thunderbird for an hour w/o finding the message ,
>> i resorted to the tried_and_true bsd approach ;
>> with hd and vi , i found , finally , a copy in a file called "Sent" .
>> because the email was never sent ,
>> this is the exact place in which to save it .
>> i believe that the jargon for this characteristic is "feature" .
>>
>> ok ; so , i did not lose the 6 hours of typing [ whew ! ] .
>>
>> i copied the relevant lines from "Sent" into its own file .
>> --but-- , for the life of me , i can not get thunderbird to
>> bring this file into a new composition window ,
>> except as an "attachment" [ which i can not see ] .
>>
>> iirc , email_"attachment"s are strongly discouraged on this list .
>> so , it is --not-- included w/ this post .
>> how_ever , i could be wrong .
>> if it --is-- permissible to do so ,
>> then i will be happy to send it w/ a subsequent post .
>>
>>
>>
>> here is the abridged version of my problem .
>>
>> i have built backup_hardware for my gateway box .
>>
>> in the event of a hardware failure ,
>> a] power_down failed_box ,
>> b] detach cables ,
>> c] swap boxen ,
>> d] attach cables ,
>> e] power_up good_box w/ auto_boot w/ dhclient .
>>
>> during the testing of the new box ,
>> i have found that the isp's dhcp server returns an address
>> which works only partially or not_at_all
>> [ it is a different address , always ; should it be ? ] .
>>
>> because the existing box has not failed ,
>> ifconfig tells me its real identity .
>>
>> if i use , manually , the "add" form of the ifconfig command ,
>> with this address , then ,
>> suddenly , everything works perfectly .
>>
>> --but-- , i did this manually , not by using dhcp .
>> i must assume that i do not know the prior address .
>>
>> the handbook and various man_pages discuss , at length ,
>> the case of a roving lap_top , w/ multiple isps .
>> in this case , i have multiple clients and a constant isp ;
>> this is not discussed .
>>
>>
>>
>> is there a way for my client to persuade the isp's server to
>> "bind" my client to an address which the isp will accept ?
>>
>> what is the etiquette regarding
>> email_"attachment"s in postings to this list ?
>>
>> is there a way to get a text_file
>> [ perhaps , created w/ vi ]
>> into a thunderbird composition window ?
>>
>>
>>
>> tia
>>
>> rob
>
22_oct_20_thu 22.10.utc
salut , david ---
a priori : thank you , thank you , thank you .
[ 20_thu 19.20.ish
in proof_reading this , before sending it off ,
i have found that the amount of information is extensive .
there_fore , i revise the above to :
a priori : merci infiniment .
i appreciate , very_much , your willingness and your time .
]
another etiquette question :
when i reply to the list , should i "cc" to the poster , also ?
erring on the side of caution , i have done so , this time ,
as the deletion of an extra copy is easy to accomplish .
>
> Regarding the IP address(es) assigned to your Internet service point by
> your ISP, it depends upon your ISP, which Internet service plan you
> have, and which hardware the ISP provided to you.
>
this makes sense .
>
> Regarding attachments to mailing list posts, my approach is as follows:
>
> 1. If the attachment is text and small, include the content in the post.
>
> 2. Otherwise, upload the content to a web server and include the URL in
> the post.
>
this is useful to know ; how_ever , ...
>
> Regarding getting text file contents into an e-mail message using a
> graphical workstation, one method is to open the file in Mousepad,
> Notepad, etc., select the desired text, copy the selected text to the
> clipboard, switch to the Thunderbird message composition window, and
> paste the clipboard contents.
>
... the above generated an idea .
i do not have the named "pad"s ;
but , i tried the following and it worked .
open the text_file in a firefox "new_tab" .
select from the ul_corner to the lr_corner .
<ctrl_c>
position the cursor in the thunderbird composition_window .
<ctrl_v>
[ because this procedure worked ,
i have rejected the "attachment" approach ;
the original post has been replicated at the end of this post ,
in its entirety , verbatim , including some headers ,
between two horizontal rules of seven hyphens , each .
much of the requested information is there , already .
]
this has the advantage of
permitting an original creation , of a post , to be done in vi .
un_fortunately , this flavor of tb erases drop_down_lists immediately ,
thus , i can not "save" the file any_where ; but , i can "send" it .
keying <ctrl_s> has the same behavior .
[ hmmm ... , per_haps , i can extract it from "mbox"
[ i use , also , fetchmail ] .
]
>
> If the above responses are insufficient, please answer the following
> questions:
>
> 1. What is the location of your Internet service point?
>
geographically , we are in rural mc_henry county , illinois , usa ,
roughly mid_way between woodstock and harvard .
if you meant some_thing else , then please advise .
> 2. Who is your ISP? Please provide a URL.
>
https://www.risebroadband.com
> 3. What Internet service plan do you have? Please provide a URL.
>
https://www.risebroadband,com/residential
> 4. What is the make and model of the access device provided by the ISP?
> Please provide a URL.
>
if you mean the roof_top antenna , then i do not know .
how_ever , i can attempt to learn by making a phone_call .
it is my very serious hope that this is --not-- what you seek ;
customer_service is --not-- this isp's strong_point
[ --some-- clerks --are-- very_good ] .
possibly , this is because i have berkeley_unix boxen , only .
on the other hand ,
if you mean the "thingy" , which the isp calls a "router" ,
then we do not have one .
the gateway box is directly connected to the roof_top antenna ,
with rj45 and poe .
the gateway does two things , packet_filtering and nat .
the isp never sees any internal traffic .
> 5. You seem to be discussing several computers -- a gateway computer, a
> backup gateway computer, and several clients (presumably, one is a
> graphical workstation with Thunderbird). Please clarify how many
> computers you have and their roles.
>
[ please refer to the post , below . ]
in general , there are many machines , on 192.168.100.0/24 ,
but , for now , only three are involved with the out_side world .
these are :
natasha 192.168.100.200 i386 8.1
catherine 192.168.100.143 amd64 11.4
113 192.168.100.113 amd64 11.3
natalie 192.168.100.201 amd64 11.3 as user
natasha 192.168.100.200 amd64 11.3 as gateway
> 6. Please pick one computer and let us work on that one. When that is
> fixed, pick another computer and start a new thread.
>
agreed .
assuming that the 11.3_natasha config is successful , then_
the plan is to replicate the fix onto 12.3_natasha ;
this "should work" [ of course , i could be wrong ] .
with the existing 8.1_natasha , i will have two gateways .
this accomplishes partial redundancy .
now that the next 3 release schedules have been announced ,
i will wait until 23_jan .
the remaining two i3_8100 boxen will be configured on 12.4 ;
the 12.3 will be re_done on 12.4 and the 8.1 will be retired .
well , ... , it's a plan .
> 7. What is the make and model of the computer? Which CPU? How much
> memory? What storage devices? Please provide URL(s).
>
i build my own mid_tower boxen [ see below ] .
the user boxen are i3/5/7 "skylake" , 64_GB ,
1/2/4_TB seagate "constellation_es.3" .
next_year , some_time , "skylake" will be replaced with "rocket_lake"
[ even though the "skylake" works just_fine ,
i want to try_out the new "avx_512" instructions
] .
the new gateways are 16_GB , same seagate .
the 8.1 has , may_be , 256_MB and
western_digital "cavier_blue" or "_black" .
> 8. Which FreeBSD installer did you use? What questions were you asked
> and how did you answer them?
>
the one which is included
with the applicable amd64/dvd or i386/cd image_file .
uhhh , ... , all of them and honestly
[ to the best of my under_standing ] .
broadly_speaking , i install every_thing , including the ports_tree .
hard_drives are extensively partitioned , to make full back_ups faster .
[ actually , 113 was not partitioned ,
because of the confusingly worded question , in the installer .
i wanted to use "fbsd only" --and--
i wanted to "partition" [ --but-- , not for other "os"es ] .
i guessed the wrong answer .
because of this ,
i chose to not finish the config any farther than necessary ;
this includes not naming it "francoise" .
it --has-- proved to be a useful second firefox platform ,
because its ff_67 displays "pdf"_files ,
while the ff_88 on 11.4_catherine , mostly , does_not do so .
]
i want to be helpful , here ;
if the above is in_sufficient , then please advise .
> 9. Please run the following commands and post your complete console
> session -- prompt, commands entered, output printed:
>
> # freebsd-version ; uname -a
>
well ; you asked for it ; but tb forces wrap_around at 72 chars
[ this --must-- be a "feature" ] ;
i will indicate this situation w/ "[tb72]" .
note_that : all boxen have a non_privileged user in group "wheel" .
catherine
---------
--0-- pts/8 root @ catherine.ntrprnr.com. 2022_Oct_19_Wed[tb72]
13:05:23.utc
/tmp
3888 # freebsd-version ; uname -a
11.4-RELEASE
FreeBSD catherine.ntrprnr.com 11.4-RELEASE FreeBSD 11.4-RELEASE #0[tb72]
r362094: Fri Jun 12 18:27:15 UTC 2020 root@releng2.nyi.freebsd[tb72]
.org:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC amd64
113
---
--0-- pts/2 root @ 113.ntrprnr.com. 2022_Oct_19_Wed[tb72]
17:12:24.utc
/
310 # freebsd-version ; uname -a
11.3-RELEASE
FreeBSD 113.ntrprnr.com 11.3-RELEASE FreeBSD 11.3-RELEASE #0[tb72]
r349754: Fri Jul 5 04:45:24 UTC 2019 root@releng2.nyi.freebsd[tb72]
.org:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC amd64
natasha 8.1
-----------
--0-- pts/1 root@natasha.ntrprnr.com. 2022_Oct_19_Wed[tb72]
17:32:30.gmt
/+shadow/etc/d.resolv_dot_conf
306 # freebsd-version ; uname -a
freebsd-version: Command not found.
FreeBSD natasha.ntrprnr.com 8.1-RELEASE FreeBSD 8.1-RELEASE #0[tb72]
: Mon Jul 19 02:55:53 UTC 2010 root@almeida.cse.buffalo.edu[tb72]
:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC i386
natalie 11.3
------------
--0-- ttyv0 root @ natalie.ntrprnr.com. 2022_Oct_19_Wed[tb72]
17:55:30.utc
/root
310 # freebsd-version ; uname -a
11.3-RELEASE
FreeBSD natalie.ntrprnr.com 11.3-RELEASE FreeBSD 11.3-RELEASE #0[tb72]
r349754: Fri Jul 5 04:45:24 UTC 2019 root@releng2.nyi.freebsd[tb72]
.org:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC amd64
> # cat /etc/rc.conf
>
>
in this case , i know what you meant ;
but , i do not do this in the same manner as do many .
i start by copying /etc/defaults/rc.conf to a new file .
then , i add a comment marker to the beginning of every line .
last , i un_comment those lines which are desired to be operative .
additionally , i rationalize the formatting ,
to eliminate the 80_column constraint [ i use 320 ] .
just like /etc/defaults/rc.conf , these files have hundreds of lines .
in this way , when editing ,
i do not have to switch back_and_forth between two_or_more files .
/etc/rc.conf is , it_self , a sym_link .
thus , those which follow are the default over_rides , --only-- ;
they appear in /etc/defaults/rc.conf order .
natalie 11.3
------------
note_that :
the dummy_config of em0 eliminates some extra boot messages ;
when booted as natalie , no cable is attached , here .
powerd_enable="YES" # common
hostname="natalie.ntrprnr.com"
ifconfig_em0="inet 192.168.100.202/24" # this is a dummy config .
ipv4_addrs_re0="192.168.100.201/24"
local_unbound_enable="YES"
sshd_enable="YES" # common
ftpd_enable="YES" # common
default_router="192.168.100.200"
keymap="us" # common
keyrate="fast" # common
cursor="blink" # common
font8x16="iso-8x16.fnt" # common
font8x14="iso-8x14.fnt" # common
font8x8="iso-8x8.fnt" # common
blanktime="NO" # common
moused_enable="YES" # common
dumpdev="AUTO" # common
natasha 11.3
------------
powerd_enable="YES" # common
hostname="natasha.ntrprnr.com"
ipfilter_enable="YES"
ipnat_enable="YES"
ipmon_enable="YES"
ifconfig_em0="DHCP"
ipv4_addrs_re0="192.168.100.200/24"
sshd_enable="YES" # common
ftpd_enable="YES" # common
gateway_enable="YES"
keymap="us" # common
keyrate="fast" # common
cursor="blink" # common
font8x16="iso-8x16.fnt" # common
font8x14="iso-8x14.fnt" # common
font8x8="iso-8x8.fnt" # common
blanktime="NO" # common
moused_enable="YES" # common
dumpdev="AUTO" # common
natasha 8.1
-----------
hostname="natasha.ntrprnr.com."
ipfilter_enable="YES"
ipnat_enable="YES"
ipmon_enable="YES"
ifconfig_em0="DHCP"
ipv4_addrs_re0="192.168.100.200/24"
inetd_enable="YES"
named_enable="YES"
sshd_enable="YES"
ftpd_enable="YES"
gateway_enable="YES"
icmp_bmcastecho="YES"
keymap="us.iso"
keyrate="fast"
cursor="blink"
font8x16="iso-8x16"
font8x14="iso-8x14"
font8x8="iso-8x8"
blanktime="NO"
moused_enable="YES"
lpd_enable="YES"
linux_enable="YES"
catherine 11.4
--------------
powerd_enable="YES"
hostname="catherine.ntrprnr.com"
ifconfig_re0="inet 192.168.100.143 netmask 255.255.255.0"
local_unbound_enable="YES"
sshd_enable="YES"
ftpd_enable="YES"
default_router="192.168.100.200"
moused_enable="YES"
lpd_enable="YES"
dumpdev="AUTO"
linux_enable="YES"
113 11.3
--------
hostname="113.ntrprnr.com"
ifconfig_re0="inet 192.168.100.113 netmask 255.255.255.0"
inetd_enable="YES"
local_unbound_enable="YES"
sshd_enable="YES"
ftpd_enable="YES"
default_router="192.168.100.200"
icmp_bmcastecho="YES"
keymap="us"
keyrate="fast"
cursor="blink"
font8x16="iso-8x16.fnt"
font8x14="iso-8x14.fnt"
font8x8="iso-8x8.fnt"
blanktime="NO"
moused_enable="YES"
lpd_enable="YES"
dumpdev="AUTO"
linux_enable="YES"
> 10. If the computer is graphical, which window manager or desktop
> environment are you using?
>
user/client machines have x installed ; the wm is "twm" .
gateways do not have x
[ well , strictly_speaking , one does ;
but , it was never configured ;
there_fore , it is never started
] .
> 11. Are you using ports or packages? What ports and/or packages have
> you installed?
>
>
packages .
11.4 catherine
--------------
xorg 7.7_3 used extensively
firefox 88.0.1_1,2 used extensively
thunderbird 78.10.2 used moderately no_flush
fetchmail 6.4.18 used after thunderbird w/ flush
nasm 2.15.05,1 dedicated_purpose
apache-openoffice 4.1.10 not_used
libreoffice6 6.4.7_9 not_used
xpdf4 4.03,1 not_used
xpdf 4.02,1 not_used
xpdf3 3.04_11 not_used
tcl86 8.6.11_1 great syntax , sloppy arithmetic
tcllib 1.20
tk86 8.6.11_2 not_used
dvd+rw-tools 7.1_3 used occasionally
11.3 113
--------
xorg 7.7_3 used extensively
firefox 67.0.2_2,1 used extensively
thunderbird 60.7.1 not_used
8.1 natasha
-----------
none
11.3 natasha/natalie
--------------------
xorg 7.7_3 not_used ; never_configured
firefox 67.0.2_2,1 not_used
thunderbird 60.7.1 not_used
m4 1.4.18_1,1 not_used
12.3 natasha/natalie
--------------------
bind 9.16.31 use tbd
> David
>
-------
From - Mon Oct 17 01:35:41 2022
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BCC: emailrob@emailrob.com
Reply-To: emailrob@emailrob.com
To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
From: spellberg_robert <emailrob@risebroadband.net>
Subject: new gateway box runs slowly or partially - dhcp issue ?
Message-ID: <073d90ea-efe9-f571-f265-d41569f09f1d@risebroadband.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2022 01:33:43 +0000
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/78.10.2
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
22_oct_16_sun 25.26.utc
howdy , folks ---
long time , no post .
here is hoping that all of you_and_yours are doing well ;
we are doing ok .
my existing gateway has well_over a decade of 24/7 use ;
fbsd i386 8.1 on micro_atx celeron_440 [ 65 nm , "cedar mill" ] .
my objective is to build two new boxen , so that ,
when one fails , a known_good replacement can be swapped_in .
these would be rotated every 4 or 5 weeks .
i already have multiple "user" machines ,
so this is [ nearly ] the last redundancy to be implemented
[ i need a backup isp , also ] .
as we all learn , sooner_or_later , hardware fails .
i started this 2_1/2 years ago , so the parts for 4 boxen are
based upon the i3_8100 , h310 chip_set .
at that time , the release was 11.3 ,
so that is one of the configurations which i used .
later , i re_started the config w/ 12.3 ;
how_ever , the recent success occurred w/ the 11.3 version ;
this will be described below .
except for the differences between the 11.3 and 12.3 releases ,
the two configs are identical
[ of course , i could be wrong , but , i do not believe so ] .
thus , a "fix" for 11.3 "should work" on 12.3 .
the gory details :
8.1 natasha re0 192.168.100.200/24 <--> em0 dhcp gateway
11.3 natasha re0 192.168.100.200/24 <--> em0 dhcp gateway
11.3 natalie re0 192.168.100.201/24 <--> em0 dummy_config user
all use ipfilter/ipnat/ipmon ;
the ".rules" files are "ftp"_copies , from the 8.1 box .
natalie/natasha 11.3 has two rc.conf files :
all development is done on natalie ; then ,
change one sym_link , power_down , swap cables , boot as natasha ;
same name , same 1918_address , make dhcp request .
when done testing ,
change the sym_link , power_down , swap cables , boot as natalie .
the development process is fairly simple and
this procedure mimics the expected future routine operation .
note_that : when the 11.3 box is natasha ,
then natasha 8.1 remains booted ,
but , its network cables [ .200 , dhcp ] are plugged into 11.3 ;
also , the natalie cable [ .201 ] is detached and un_connected .
the current 8.1 dhcp assignment is 66.114.191.36/25
[ iirc , i have seen , also , .39 ] ;
when 11.3 is booted as natasha , the dhcp "bound to" address is ,
recently , 172.19.65.233/27 [ also , .239 , .240 , .241 ] .
these come from [ DHCPOFFER , DHCPACK ] 66.114.187.249 [ always ] .
some observations :
when natalie and the other user_machines are going through 8.1 ,
which is using the 66. address ,
then , every_thing is "just_fine , thank_you" , as expected .
ping and traceroute , to 8.8.8.8 , establish a base_line of "normalcy"
[ 7 - 15 ms , 13 hops [ 9 belong to my isp ] ] .
interestingly , on the 8.1_box , it_self ,
ping and traceroute generate "Network is unreachable" messages .
also , on 12.3 [ but , not 11.3 ] ,
natalie successfully retrieved the package for bind_9.16.31 ,
from where_ever [ thus , resolution works ] .
--how_ever-- , when the user_machines are going through the 11.3 box ,
which is using the 172. address ,
then , for 8.8.8.8 , ping never returns and
traceroute goes permanently "* * *" after , maybe , 6 hops
[ iirc , i let it go for 30 - 40 ; much more than 13 ] .
ping and traceroute succeed w/ 66.114.187.249 , above ;
this is hop 2 , after the gateway , 192.168.100.200 .
thus , they --do-- work ; they just do not go very far .
on the 11.3 box , it_self , ping and traceroute generate
the same "Network is unreachable" messages .
the discovery :
although i had started this in 20_feb ,
i have been rather obsessed since 22_apr .
spending at least part of almost every week_end on this ,
because i was making no progress ,
every_thing became suspect .
are my config_files correct ?
am i spelling commands correctly ?
did some_body change some code ,
but not note the change in the man_page ?
i choose to believe that i can solve almost any fbsd problem
[ at least , for the things that --i-- do ] ;
but , after a_while , a person begins to doubt themselves .
22_sep_25_sun :
i had noticed that the two dhcp assignments were different .
i was reading the man_page for ifconfig .
i had seen the concept of "alias" and i had seen the option of "add" .
on the 8.1 box , netstat -inW reported the network as "66.114.191.0/"
[ on 8.1 , the -W option has no effect ] .
so , on the previous sun [ sep_18 ] , i had tried
ifconfig em0 inet 66.114.191.36/24 add
but , it did not work .
how_ever , i noticed that the network specification was in_complete .
i had assumed that it was a /24 .
a check with ifconfig confirmed that my assumption was wrong
[ that'll teach me ] .
try again :
ifconfig em0 inet 66.114.191.36/25 add
MIRACLE_OF_MIRACLES !!!
it was like the parting of the red sea .
every_thing was wide_open .
ping and traceroute worked as well as they did on the 8.1 box .
firefox had no trouble w/ "radar.weather.gov" ,
nor with "forecast.weather.gov" .
after watching this , with smug satisfaction , for several minutes ,
i deleted the alias , because it had not been obtained by dhcp .
i have no way of knowing how long any address assignment will last .
finally , the question [ and the crowd goes wild ] :
un_fortunately , this discovery does not solve the problem ;
it succeeds , only , in identifying it .
it seems to me that the isp should be assigning the existing address,
rather than assign a new address and , then ,
not_or_partially honor that new address .
after all , they already know the identity of the existing address .
why change it .
in reading various man_pages and the hand_book ,
i find a bias in the examples which are given .
the common premise is that of a single [ constant ] lap_top ,
attached to a wandering human ,
which human appears at different locations ,
for the purpose of connecting to different isps ,
through the use of something , which is called "wi_fi" .
my situation is the inverse of this ;
i have one [ constant ] isp and multiple clients .
this situation is not discussed .
if the client_machine is the constant ,
then , probably , there exists a "data_base" file ,
which file lists prior "leases" .
suppose that the removed_box is being replaced because
its hd will_not "spin_up" .
there needs to be a way
to get the isp's dhcp_server to assign an address ,
which address will be accepted by the isp .
i suspect that i may have to talk to my isp about this ;
but , then , maybe_not .
maybe , this is some_thing which can be solved at my end , completely
[ that would be nice ] .
it may be that i need to spend money to get a "static" ip_assignment .
how_ever , if i am going to do that , then i may want to get a /29 ;
i want my own mail_server and that means 2 authoritative name_servers
[ an early version of bind_9 is on the 8.1 box ;
i find bind to be straight_forward
] .
regard_less , before i inquire of the isp ,
i wanted to learn whether_or_not any_one who reads this list has
any experience with a problem of this type .
this is the premise :
back_up__hardware is A Good Thing ;
this is the question :
how do i get the back_up__hardware
to protocol with the isp's dhcp_server
to assign an address [ same or different , from recent use ]
which will be accepted by the isp ?
tia
rob
ps ---
sorry about the length , but , on this list ,
it is my opinion that
it is better to err on the side of thorough_ness .
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