Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 14:21:34 +1100 From: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au> To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Rant: What are we? Message-ID: <19980328142134.33048@welearn.com.au> In-Reply-To: <351C451A.F7897291@dal.net>; from Doug on Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 04:32:26PM -0800 References: <3.0.32.19980328062831.009b6bc0@pop.mpc.com.br> <351C451A.F7897291@dal.net>
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On Fri, Mar 27, 1998 at 04:32:26PM -0800, Doug wrote:
> Indeed. I've had people mail me saying that they appreciated my help
> but they are unsubscribing from -newbies because they don't want to be
> held hostage to one person's view of what the list should be.
People on every mailing list make comments like that. If we are at all "held
hostage" if you must use an extreme term, it is to the overall community's
wellbeing and our own will to make our own decisions, and the need for
compatibility between those two.
The decision to disallow support questions was not initially mine, but until
now I have been prepared to take any flack for it rather than let the blame
fall on anyone else. As it turns out, that decision has been good for everyone.
Most newbies are missing the context of history here.
I didn't simply set this list up and go for it. I insisted that we discuss
the possible issues for the rest of the FreeBSD Project. Since I was the
only person interested enough to initiate and follow through something for
newbies I took my responsibilities seriously and set it up so that at least:
1. No-one else's work would be slighted or usurped by the list's existence
and
2. The newbies joining would have enough options, be sufficiently free of
outside pressures to make most of their own decisions about what they
wanted to do with the list, within the constraints of (1)
Some of the most serious concerns were that newbies might give each other
incorrect technical advice, that a few medium-level users could easily take
over such a little pond by charitable appearances as experts, and that the
support for newbies in -questions would diminish if they came here for it
instead, causing those who wish to volunteer support to subscribe to yet
another list if they like newbies. Further, there would be endless confusion
over which questions are newbie enough to be on this list and which are not,
and debates, and... division. We don't need that! These concerns sounded
real and addressable, and the present freebsd-newbies is the result of that
community process.
Had we not taken those concerns into account we would not have had a mailing
list for newbies at all. Some people, including some newbies, will always
see newbies as people asking for help. Even now, some appear to want to push
that passive definition upon us. The only way to give it a chance to work
was to encourage the list's use by newbies only. I knew some more advanced
people would try to get their bib in, tell us what to do, and turn it into a
second freebsd-questions if given half the chance. So I asked the more
advanced users to avoid coming in and imposing their magic until we had the
chance to find out what we can do for ourselves. We're always being told to
do more for ourselves, and guess what, some of us want to! For the third
time, Doug, I'm asking you to show your respect for newbies, for what we are
trying to achieve together through this list, and for the FreeBSD Project as
a whole, by letting us get on with it.
If anyone had a better idea for how to make this work and sincerely wished
to do something constructive in the long term, they should have spoken up
and volunteered their own efforts last month, last year, and the year
before, when newbies asked for their own space and everyone was too busy
hacking to lift a damn finger.
We've got our code, and we've got our newbies list. We're doing it FOR
OURSELVES and it's OK, we're getting by fine without being a burden on
anyone else. It's not meant to be everyone's cup of tea but some of us are
actually enjoying it. Nor is it meant to offend those we've been totally
dependent on in the past. We do still need their help very much, but we know
where to go for that.
> As I've said, I support the idea of this list defining its own purpose as
> it grows.
Then you do agree with something :-)
> I have and will continue to keep my posts to this lists few and
> far between.
And as moderator I ask you to keep them on topic, please. Most things that
newbies like to talk about are on topic. Support, however, is not. And that
is not negotiable, for the reasons outlined above. The activity which
defines this list is that of being a newbie, doing what newbies do when they
are not seeking and giving technical support.
Now if you or anyone else cares to dispute the validity of those concerns or
the wisdom of this decision, debate it by all means, but not here. The issue
should be returned to freebsd-chat where it started, and where there's
several people who have an interest in the original discussion.
> However freebsd is a family, and one group of freebsd users
> telling another group that they are "guests" and should be seen and not
> heard doesn't promote unity. It supports a class division that only
> exists in certain people's imagination.
You're right there Doug. I'm not used to people having to be told how to
treat each other's endeavours with respect. The division between mailing
lists is not based on class but on activities. The activity of asking and
answering questions belongs in -questions. Multimedia activities have
freebsd-multimedia, and there's -hackers for people who are hacking (ahem..
writing code, not cracking). I don't think that's too hard to understand,
even for a newbie. The *activities* of newbies which cannot be discussed on
other mailing lists belong here.
Because I insisted throughout that we use only -questions for support, we
are now as much a part of that mailing list as anyone. Had I *once* buckled
under pressure to have support here, there would have been class division
and fragmentation of efforts.
Being the moderator this makes me extremely unpopular, creates hours of work
each day, and means I have to stick my neck out to defend principles with
little regard for my own personal position, but that's the job and I
normally do it without complaint or comment. Other newbies will soon share
these responsibilities. I make a lot of mistakes, but this is not one of
them. It is bloody hard work which I happen to consider worth every hurdle.
If this list cannot be permitted to give newbies the free space to work out
what they want to do for the community without interference, where we can
make our own unhurried decisions, make a few mistakes along the way, and
learn, then I wonder what the hell can.
And after only a week, over 250 other newbies seem to agree.
Something's gotta be working here :-) I think it's us.
Weak Disclaimer: For those who are new, Doug and I are like the dog and cat
of the community at the moment :-) I stand by everything here, but please
filter it through the knowledge that I may be biased without good reason or
awareness. Doug has done a lot for FreeBSD, and for newbies in -questions,
and is deserving of your respect regardless of any disagreement I may
express on the topic of -newbies.
--
Regards,
-*Sue*-
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