Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 23:47:31 -0600 (MDT) From: Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com> To: grog@lemis.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Tiananmen square (was: Does it's true?) Message-ID: <199806300547.XAA24892@softweyr.com> In-Reply-To: <19980630132454.S1880@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19980630132454.S1880@freebie.lemis.com>
next in thread | previous in thread | raw e-mail | index | archive | help
My hidden microphone recorded Greg Lehey (grog@lemis.com) saying:
% On Monday, 29 June 1998 at 21:45:36 -0600, Wes Peters wrote:
% > My hidden microphone recorded Greg Lehey (grog@lemis.com) saying:
% >
% >> 1. Forced abortion and forced sterilization. For Christians, of
% >> course, an abomination. In China, quite possibly law. Yes, I can
% >> believe they do this. After seeing what has happened in the 30
% >> years between my two visits to India, I can understand the Chinese
% >> view.
% >
% > There are absolute wrongs in this life, and the killing of innocents
% > is at the top of the list.
%
% Well, we could discuss that, but let's take it for now. OK. Based on
% that logic, which is worse: killing a thousand innocents or a million?
Neither. It's a binary function, like being pregnant.
% >> 2. "Simply killed outright". Did she bring documentation of this as
% >> well? How often? Where? Why? If they had the power to kill,
% >> they had the power to anaesthetize and sterilize.
% >
% > Yes, she did. It apparently happened "several times" in her tenure, with
% > women who were so hysterical the clinic staff could not deal with them. %
The
% > clinic staff called the police, and the police killed these women. This %
was
% > apparently done to discourage violent resistance. These killings were
% > apparently documented in the medical records of these women kept by the
% > clinic.
%
% Hmm. Where?
You didn't read my original posting. She managed to bring several years of
records from the clinic with her. This was all recorded in the official
records of the clinic, even the deaths of two of the women she alleged were
killed by police.
% > The cinderblock incident I mentioned, however, was only one of many acts
% of
% > premeditated violence that took place during that time, several of which I
% > have physical scars from. Institutionalized violence frightens me far
% more
% > than the random meanderings of morally deficient individuals, but I have
% grown
% > up in a country where institutionalized violence is relatively rare, and
% > generally condemned.
%
% Hmm. At this stage I can't see a big difference between police
% shooting hysterical women and the "accidental" fatal police shootings
% which happen more often than people would like to admit even in
% countries with good human rights records.
Yeah, we've had a rash of those around here this year. One teenage girl was
shot to death as her compatriots in car theft jumped over a fence. She got
stuck on the fence and jumped back down on the side where the police were
chasing her, with a "weapon" in her hand. The "weapon" turned out to be a
hair brush, for which she died. That pretty much puts the Salt Lake County
sheriff's department on firm footing along with the state police in China, as
far as I'm concerned. One of the big differences is that here we can, and
WILL, get the sonofabitch thrown out of office. It's nice to have a publicly
sanctioned revolution every 4 or 6 years.
A major difference in the Chinese case was the women who were shot at the
clinic were confined in a cage in the clinic at the time; they certainly
weren't threatening the police officials in any way locked in a cage.
% >>>>> Let's not forget where the criminals in China are - the government
% >>>>> itself.
% >>>>
% >>>> I think that claim needs a little justification.
% >>>
% >>> See the above-mentioned report by the Chinese "welfare worker."
% >>
% >> Let's see a URL or something. I'm not denying that this happened.
% >> After all, even in Australia (and quite possibly in the US) forced
% >> sterilizations have been practised. The difference is that in
% >> Australia they had only a very tenuous legal basis.
% >
% > I'll call the local affiliates and find out which network aired the %
segment.
% > I doubt you'll find them on-line; they make money charging for their
% > typewritten transcripts.
%
% This doesn't exactly make them more convincing.
%
% Don't get me wrong, I realise that China has a long way to go. I'm
% not doubting anything that you've said, but my own experience has
% shown that things aren't always quite the way the reports make them
% seem.
%
% Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key
--
"Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?"
Wes Peters Softweyr LLC
http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com
To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org
with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message
Want to link to this message? Use this URL: <https://mail-archive.FreeBSD.org/cgi/mid.cgi?199806300547.XAA24892>