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Date:      Wed, 3 May 2000 16:54:22 +0530
From:      Rahul Siddharthan <rsidd@physics.iisc.ernet.in>
To:        "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@zippy.cdrom.com>
Cc:        "Daniel J. Zaccariello" <marisombra@mindspring.com>, John Papalia <john@jpepconsulting.com>, Jeremiah Gowdy <jgowdy@home.com>, smkelly@slashnet.org, insane@lunatic.oneinsane.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: Attitudes towards newbies (was Re: FreeBSD and IRC)
Message-ID:  <20000503165421.A2972@physics.iisc.ernet.in>
In-Reply-To: <20801.957350993@localhost>; from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com on Wed, May 03, 2000 at 03:49:53AM -0700
References:  <20000503155711.A754@physics.iisc.ernet.in> <20801.957350993@localhost>

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Jordan K. Hubbard said on May  3, 2000 at 03:49:53:
> > This is most definitely on topic: it concerns early experiences of
> > many new users in support, which will affect whether they choose
> > to start using the system or not, and whether they will in turn
> > advocate it to others.
> 
> I hardly see what IRC, a medium which the FreeBSD project does not
> control or endorse in any way, has to do with the question of
> "providing support for newbies."

I can't figure out whether you're pretending not to understand the
issue, or really not understanding it despite the last paragraph of
my earlier mail. The issue is not whether IRC should provide support.
It is not whether the FreeBSD project should endorse the medium. The
issue is that users seem to be having bad experiences there, and you
have yourself said it's nothing new, so the project should more
clearly dissociate itself from it -- and make it much clearer that
it is not advisable to go there -- rather than merely say afterwards
"it's none of our business."  You have yourself said that this is not
a new problem and it keeps happening.  Moreover, the *responsible*
FreeBSD team members on that channel (and it is clear that there are
several) should take care to see that they don't unnecessarily turn
people off.  Redirect them elsewhere, but do it nicely; kick them only
if they refuse to go away on their own.

To repeat: many people may think, without intending harm, that
#freebsd is a suitable place for tech questions.  Many free software
projects in fact do seem to have IRC channels for this.  So make it
clear, on the web page, that this is not the place. "It is a FreeBSD
forum...Don't go there for tech support... it is a chat channel first
and foremost"  only suggests that it may not be helpful, not that it
is actively forbidden.  And even that statement, weak as it is, would
belong better on the support page.  But anything leading to bad user
experiences, or to negative associations in people's minds with
FreeBSD, should be of concern to -advocacy.  Sorry for being
repetitive but I'm amazed this is not getting across.

> Anything else is entirely at your own risk and not really a topic for
> advocacy@freebsd.org unless you want to share details of a
> particularly successful method for advocating FreeBSD.

Want to know the most successful method?  Being nice to people.
Everything else, even the merits of the system, comes afterwards:
nobody enjoys rudeness.

> > And why is it buried in the FAQ?
> 
> Nobody has bothered to write any wording for the support section.

OK here it is: 

  IRC: While #freebsd channels exist, the FreeBSD project does not
  control them and does not endorse IRC as a support medium.  You may be
  ignored, insulted or kicked out if you ask questions there.  Since
  these channels are not official, we are not listing them here.  If you
  still want to try them, it is at your own risk.

Rahul.


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