Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 17:23:45 +0930 From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com> To: Ted Mittelstaedt <tedm@toybox.placo.com> Cc: Brian Raynes <brian_raynes@dnr.state.ak.us>, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand Together" Message-ID: <20010521172345.A30256@wantadilla.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: <001001c0e1c8$37cc0440$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>; from tedm@toybox.placo.com on Mon, May 21, 2001 at 12:32:41AM -0700 References: <20010521103857.H30256@wantadilla.lemis.com> <001001c0e1c8$37cc0440$1401a8c0@tedm.placo.com>
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On Monday, 21 May 2001 at 0:32:41 -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >> [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Greg Lehey >> Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 6:09 PM >> To: Ted Mittelstaedt >> Cc: Brian Raynes; freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG >> Subject: Re: [dn-core] Re: Perens' "Free Software Leaders Stand >> Together" >> >> >> [Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html] >> >> On Friday, 18 May 2001 at 23:12:53 -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: >>> On Friday, May 18, 2001 7:17 PM, Brian Raynes wrote: >>>> >>>> And why would programmers on the GPL side fear the BSD license? Unless >>>> I've completely missed something, they could quite easily make use of >>>> all the BSD code they like in GPL software. The idea that nothing in >>>> the original is lost if someone uses it elsewhere still applies, for >>>> both licenses. >>> >>> Because, IF your desired goal of GPL is to "virally infect" all >>> software to force it to be open, then you would rightly fear BSD >>> because it's an alternative. >> >> What does this have to do with reality? Again, it sounds like FUD. >> > > Greg, your just throwing out rediculous statements like this to > create your own FUD and to be rediculous. Let me refer you to the > following URL: > > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-not-lgpl.html *sigh* > This is the point that I made earlier, it's the point that the GNU > project makes in it's own writings. How many people need to sit > here and bash this idea into your head until you get it? None. I've had enough of this thread. I just plain disagree with you, OK? The GPL has weaknesses, agreed, but so has the BSD license. I refuse to look on people who prefer the GPL as being evil to the core. > If my bitching about it will make Bruce include BSD people next > time, then I will have done far more to unite the Open Source > community than anything that it appears that anyone else has done so > far. Your bitching is more likely to alienate BSD in the free software community. I can't see anything good that it does. You're beginning to sound like Brett Glass. >> Let me give a counterexample. This polarization is not to our >> advantage. It's not to the GPL community's advantage either. > > Um, well if that is the case then why didn't Bruce include us? You still don't know? I think I've told you three times. Do me a favour, will you? Point us to a photo of you so we can be sure you're not Brett Glass in disguise. >> About the only group who could benefit by increased polarization in >> the free software community is Microsoft. > > Actually, they would benefit more by us being lumped together with > Linux. > > If your engaged in a massive PR campaign against a competitor, > like Microsoft is with GPL, then it is in your interest if you are > successfully able to propagandize the market that your competitor is > just one drop in an ocean of competitors. In other words "there are the Linux crowd, there are the *BSDs, who don't even talk to each other". My case stands. >> I note a surprising Microsoft-centricity in your messages, >> including typical format breakage and a lack of trimming which ill >> befits an author. Are you maybe working in Microsoft's interests? > > Greg, I hate to descend to this muck slinging level, but you started > it. Well, no, I just pointed out a parallel to your argumentation. I never said, nor do I believe, that you're in the pay of Microsoft, but people in the GPL camp might do, and I'd consider their arguments no weaker than what you've presented in this thread. > In contrast, is there anywhere in The Complete FreeBSD where YOU > state that Microsoft is inferior and should be replaced, or that the > company is criminal, or that it's like Sauron? No. I consider this a feature, not a bug. A lot of us were turned off by the vehement anti-Microsoft attitude in your book. Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not in favour of Microsoft. Catch me in private for confirmation of that. But it has no place in my book, and putting it there would turn off a number of people off FreeBSD. > Greg, when Bruce Perens wrote his "stand together" document, he > was making a big mistake; it's an egotistical kind of idea that "Hey, > I'm so important that Microsoft is actually talking to ME" > > In reality, Greg Mundie, and Steve Ballmer and the rest of the major > Microsoft executives, when they make speeches against Linux and Open > Source, they are NOT addressing us, they are addressing all of the > Windows administrators who are out there wondering "Gee, what's that > Linux stuff all about, maybe I should check into it". Incidentally, > this is the SAME market that MY book addresses. What is going on is > that Microsoft knows that anyone who has really spent some time > trying out FreeBSD, or Linux, or any other Open Source OS, well that > administrator is a lost cause. They are never going to get him or > her back into the fold. Now there I can agree with you. > By contrast, > > as more and more DIFFERENT groups adopt DIFFERENT licensing, and even > stand independent of each other, all under the banner of Open > Source, it's much harder to fight something like that. Fractionally. The terms "open source" and "free software" both embrace GPL, BSDL and a whole lot of others. I don't think the target audience would notice the difference. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message
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