Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 21:59:26 +1100 From: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au> To: Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@FreeBSD.ORG> Cc: leegold <no_spam@worldpost.com>, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: arrgh squared Message-ID: <20020211215925.O60024@welearn.com.au> In-Reply-To: <20020211010055.GB6999@hades.hell.gr>; from keramida@FreeBSD.ORG on Mon, Feb 11, 2002 at 03:00:55AM %2B0200 References: <000501c1b28b$fb806ae0$50cd7ad1@ljgms2k> <20020211010055.GB6999@hades.hell.gr>
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On Mon, Feb 11, 2002 at 03:00:55AM +0200, Giorgos Keramidas wrote:
> On 2002-02-10 18:37, leegold wrote:
> > I find FreeBsd too complicated. I've bought all the books been at it for
> > two years, and I still don't feel I have a grasp on simple things, like
> > installing new programs, and ungrading.
>
> Despite all the effort being put into making FreeBSD an easy OS,
> I have to agree with you. FreeBSD or any Unix-like operating system is not
> for the faint in heart. What you have been trying to do is install the
> operating system all by yourself. Doing this however, puts you in the role
> of an "administrator" and that's usually where things start going `bad'.
I agree, though I wouldn't put it quite like that.
FreeBSD is as easy as any other OS to _use_. But you need a system
administrator to set it up for you and maintain it. That's the basic
idea. These days people expect to do everything themselves, and have
good practical reasons for needing to. But that means you have to
start with the most difficult part (install, setup) before you can
begin to learn the easiest (using its programs and shell commands).
Microsoft and Macintosh systems, by contrast, are designed to be
used without a system administrator on tap. You don't get to choose
much about how you want your system set up, because the OS assumes
you don't know, and that you must be shown no options to confuse you.
Rigid, predictable, user-installable. It's horses for courses.
When I'm teaching someone, I start with a few easy commands and lots
of concepts with much time spent treasure-hunt style testing out how
the thing works (I can go 'cd /path/directory' but what would happen
if I just went 'cd'?). It is a long long time before a large number
of common shell commands are easy to run off the fingers. Much much
later you're supposed to be able to do very easy admin things, like
installing a CD package with /stand/sysinstall or pkg_add while
referring to instructions. Much much later you can cope with more
admin tasks before you get to the hard ones that the real sysadmin
will do for you. And after a lot more time, you might get up to
doing most or all of the admin tasks yourself. But installation
and setting up a unix system, whoah, that's a whole other level higher.
So here you are, madly trying to remember to type ls instead of dir,
and you're expected to be able to install and configure a unix
machine? Sure, it's _supposed_ to be hard! It's all back to front!
What you "should" be doing is getting someone very experienced to
fully set up your machine, and only then start learning things,
in the proper order. But of course most of us can't organise
that and of necessity we jump in at the deep end. If your hardware
is pretty standard and you are able to follow the instructions
without becoming snagged, guess what? It'll work, even though
you're not a real sysadmin, even though you don't know what
you're doing. It "just works" for lots of people.
Not everyone, though, and if it doesn't work for you it's not your
fault, it's just lack of extra good luck. Then you have to go ask about
it on freebsd-questions. If you're real unlucky, you'll have to ask a
few questions and learn a few things you didn't plan on learning so
soon, before you get the $^%#%& thing running properly. Bummber. That's
the way it goes sometimes. The first-time-lucky ones will boast (that's
what this list is for too BTW) about how easy it is. There's hundreds
of them, and we let them all have their moment of glory :-) but don't
let that get you down. When your system is all the way you want it you
can tell us you're a genius having worked through so many problems, and
we'll celebrate with you, too.
Just be careful not to create bad luck for yourself: don't ask any
question where you might be misled. Helpful friends are real bad
news in your situation. Ask _only_ on freebsd-questions, where any
misinformation will be corrected by 2000 peers jostling for the
status of being most correct. Your chances of being misled there
(provided your question is worded OK) are pretty low, and right
now you can't afford any doubts or wasted effort.
> To administer an OS is not an easy thing. The efforts being put into
> making the FreeBSD installation as easy as possible are a Good Thing(TM)
> though. The documentation (Handbook, FAQ, articles, etc) that is made
> available online is also another Good Thing. The way ports makes it easy
> (for some definition of "easy") to install new programs is another Good
> Thing.
>
> If you find that any of these (installation, package installation,
> documentation, and day-to-day use and operation) parts of FreeBSD have
> problems or are too hard to grasp, then you're more than welcome to post
> comments.
Yep, the people who write documents are very keen to hear from newbies,
if they have suggestions for what could make it a little clearer, or
a pat on the back for a doc that was particularly clear and useful,
otherwise they'd never know it's good and might stop writing.
> This list (newbies) is a nice place to start :)
> That's what newbies is all about, IIRC.
> For users of FreeBSD (newcomers or not) to post experiences,
> comments, suggestions, to ask about ways to learn more, etc.
... and even to let of steam if you really have to (you can't
get away with doing that elsewhere) and come back and apologise
tomorrow. We've all been there :-)
> Sue Blake, the head of this list, will (please?) correct me if I'm wrong.
Head? I think I'm more like its left elbow.
--
Regards,
-*Sue*-
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