Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2024 10:30:43 -0400 From: Jan Knepper <jan@digitaldaemon.com> To: David Chisnall <theraven@FreeBSD.org>, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk> Cc: ske-89@pkmab.se, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in any system) Message-ID: <256401bf-1b46-467a-a44e-42fc14d20ebf@digitaldaemon.com> In-Reply-To: <C992AC0F-6EA4-4B67-BC0C-702209039586@FreeBSD.org> References: <202409091304.aa20239@berenice.pkmab.se> <202409091124.489BOWk2082765@critter.freebsd.dk> <B8AEE93C-6431-4ED2-B1C6-7945A9A41AD0@FreeBSD.org> <202409091332.489DWNmO084207@critter.freebsd.dk> <C992AC0F-6EA4-4B67-BC0C-702209039586@FreeBSD.org>
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[-- Attachment #1 --]
On 9/9/24 10:05, David Chisnall wrote:
> On 9 Sep 2024, at 14:32, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
>>
>> David Chisnall writes:
>>
>>> On 9 Sep 2024, at 12:24, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> What might that subset be?
>>>>
>>>> Initially it will be "better C compiler", but then we will gradually
>>>> allow more and more of C++ to be used.
>>>
>>> In my experience, the worst C++ code is written by people thinking in C.
>>> The second worst is written by people thinking in Java (or Smalltalk).
>>
>> I dont disagree :-)
>>
>> But it's either a gradual approach or "never" because a rewrite in
>> toto wont happen.
>
> I agree, incremental change is always better. I just don’t want to
> encourage anyone to write C++ that looks like C, because that’s going
> to combine the frustrations people have with C and C++. A gradual
> approach needs a simple step 1, but it also needs a step 2, and then a
> step 3, and so on.
>
Second.
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On 9/9/24 10:05, David Chisnall wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:C992AC0F-6EA4-4B67-BC0C-702209039586@FreeBSD.org">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
On 9 Sep 2024, at 14:32, Poul-Henning Kamp
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:phk@phk.freebsd.dk"><phk@phk.freebsd.dk></a> wrote:<br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<meta charset="UTF-8">
<span
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: SourceCodePro-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">David
Chisnall writes:</span><br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: SourceCodePro-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
<br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: SourceCodePro-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
<blockquote type="cite"
style="font-family: SourceCodePro-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">On
9 Sep 2024, at 12:24, Poul-Henning Kamp <<a
href="mailto:phk@phk.freebsd.dk" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">phk@phk.freebsd.dk</a>>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">What might that subset be?<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Initially it will be "better C compiler", but then we
will gradually<br>
allow more and more of C++ to be used.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
In my experience, the worst C++ code is written by people
thinking in C.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
The second worst is written by people thinking in Java (or
Smalltalk).<br>
</blockquote>
<br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: SourceCodePro-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
<span
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: SourceCodePro-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">I
dont disagree :-)</span><br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: SourceCodePro-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
<br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: SourceCodePro-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
<span
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: SourceCodePro-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">But
it's either a gradual approach or "never" because a
rewrite in toto wont happen.</span><br
style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: SourceCodePro-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<div>I agree, incremental change is always better. I just don’t
want to encourage anyone to write C++ that looks like C, because
that’s going to combine the frustrations people have with C and
C++. A gradual approach needs a simple step 1, but it also
needs a step 2, and then a step 3, and so on. </div>
<br>
</blockquote>
Second.<br>
<br>
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