Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 10:33:50 -0700 From: Scott Long <scottl@samsco.org> To: Attilio Rao <attilio@freebsd.org> Cc: FreeBSD Arch <arch@freebsd.org>, Ed Maste <emaste@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: [PATCH] Statclock aliasing by LAPIC Message-ID: <274B568B-81D9-4554-8C3A-888FF0CD7B08@samsco.org> In-Reply-To: <3bbf2fe11001190927m10f73775p7b68eb4d3ce0470a@mail.gmail.com> References: <3bbf2fe10911271542h2b179874qa0d9a4a7224dcb2f@mail.gmail.com> <20100116205752.J64514@delplex.bde.org> <3bbf2fe11001160409w1dfdbb9j36458c52d596c92a@mail.gmail.com> <201001191144.23299.jhb@freebsd.org> <3bbf2fe11001190927m10f73775p7b68eb4d3ce0470a@mail.gmail.com>
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On Jan 19, 2010, at 10:27 AM, Attilio Rao wrote: > 2010/1/19 John Baldwin <jhb@freebsd.org>: >> On Saturday 16 January 2010 7:09:38 am Attilio Rao wrote: >>> 2010/1/16 Bruce Evans <brde@optusnet.com.au>: >>>> On Fri, 15 Jan 2010, Attilio Rao wrote: >>>> >>>>> I still see clock_lock in place (and no particular critical >>>>> section >>>>> code in that paths) or you meant to say that the clock_lock >>>>> doesn't >>>>> still provide enough protection alone? >>>>> BTW, you were right about the lapic_timer_hz (I forgot to revert >>>>> to >>>>> hz). There is an updated patch: >>>>> >>>>> >> http://www.freebsd.org/~attilio/Sandvine/STABLE_8/statclock_aliasing/statclock_aliasing4.diff >>>> >>>> It seems to have the same fundamental bugs as the previous version. >>>> The atrtc interrupt is too slow to use for anything, so it should >>>> never >>>> be used if there is something better like the lapic timer available >>>> (even the i8254 is better), and using it here doesn't even fix the >>>> problem (malicious applications can very easily hide from statclock >>>> by default since the default hz is much larger than the default >>>> stathz, >>>> and malicious applications can not so easily hide from statclock >>>> irrespective >>>> of the misconfiguration of hz, since statclock is not random). >>>> See my >>>> previous reply and ftp://ftp.ee.lbl.gov/papers/statclk-usenix93.ps.Z >>>> for >>>> more details. >>> >>> Well, the primary things I wanted to fix is not the hiding of >>> malicious programs but the clock aliasing created when handling all >>> the clocks by the same source. >>> About the slowness -- I'm fine with whatever additional source to >>> LAPIC we would eventually use thus would you feel better if i8254 is >>> used replacing atrtc? >>> Also note that atrtc is the default if LAPIC cannot be used. I don't >>> understand why another source, even simpler (eg. i8254) would have >>> been used in that specific case by the 'old' code. >>> >>> What I mean, then is: I see your points, I'm not arguing that at >>> all, >>> but the old code has other problems that gets fixed with this patch >>> (having different sources make the whole system more flexible) while >>> the new things it does introduce are secondarilly (but still: I'm >>> fine >>> with whatever second source is picked up for statclock, profclock) >>> if >>> you really see a concern wrt atrtc slowness. >> >> You can't use the i8254 reliable with APIC enabled. Some >> motherboards don't >> actually hook up IRQ 0 to pin 2. We used to support this by >> enabling IRQ 0 in >> the atpic and enabling the ExtINT pin to use both sets of PICs in >> tandem. >> However, this was very gross and had its own set of issues, so we >> removed the >> support for "mixed mode" a while ago. Also, the ACPI specification >> specifically forbids an OS from using "mixed mode". >> >> My feeling, btw, is that the real solution is to not use a sampling >> clock for >> per-process stats, but to just use the cycle counter and keep >> separate user, >> system, and interrupt cycle counts (like the rux_runtime we have >> now). This >> makes calcru() trivial and eliminates many of the weird "going >> backwards", >> etc. problems. The only issue with this approach is that not all >> platforms >> have a cheap cycle counter (many embedded platforms lack one I >> think), so you >> would almost need to support both modes of operation and maybe have >> an #define >> in <machine/param.h> to choose between the two modes. > > Generally that would be a good idea, but the problem is not only for > the architectures not supporting it, but also for architectures that > do (eg. TSC de-synchronization in some SMP environment). > For process stats, TSC desync isn't a big problem. As a process migrates from one CPU to the other, its stats from the old cpu will be recorded, then stats will be started on the new cpu. The only problem here is with normalizing the different TSC's to a common reference. Maybe that can be done when computing cp_times? This is definitely a case where 'perfect' is the enemy of 'a hell of a lot better than we have now'. Scott
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