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Date:      Tue, 11 Oct 2011 18:09:38 -0700
From:      Julian Elischer <julian@freebsd.org>
To:        Arnaud Lacombe <lacombar@gmail.com>
Cc:        FreeBSD current <freebsd-current@freebsd.org>
Subject:   Re: System headers with clang?
Message-ID:  <4E94E8D2.8010502@freebsd.org>
In-Reply-To: <CACqU3MVbVze0ejRqeoDANeREcWNhxQguOkyLU1V26AWT_2SqkA@mail.gmail.com>
References:  <alpine.BSF.2.00.1110091229550.43656@lrosenman.dyndns.org>	<4E942FF1.9000805@FreeBSD.org>	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1110110830200.21480@lrosenman.dyndns.org>	<4E9449F2.2000801@FreeBSD.org>	<4E944BA5.4080506@lerctr.org>	<83FC19FA-BD52-4383-9ABE-708161597B85@mac.com>	<589d032a-7b71-4ff1-8adf-f5e49e87696c@email.android.com>	<CACM2%2B-5ne78pQ0xbbomsJvbw27KsiVN4D66ie-admpQhBg7LPA@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1110111253440.62331@lrosenman.dyndns.org>	<CAGH67wTpZ-HW7ogTWzhxV9XROkxLD_vCMGemc%2B9sOp%2B%2B1H3-gg@mail.gmail.com>	<CADL2u4i1jPMGR0deh8TVqudoBQ4scqFoYazepR5s4DKchyQU2A@mail.gmail.com>	<CACqU3MXeC1u1PsD4Dyx5RR3%2BAdSNE6hPuyZ599JiBx7ppcqOjg@mail.gmail.com>	<4E949C26.4070105@freebsd.org> <CACqU3MVbVze0ejRqeoDANeREcWNhxQguOkyLU1V26AWT_2SqkA@mail.gmail.com>

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On 10/11/11 12:57 PM, Arnaud Lacombe wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 3:42 PM, Julian Elischer<julian@freebsd.org>  wrote:
>> On 10/11/11 12:36 PM, Arnaud Lacombe wrote:
>>>> [...]
>>> libprocstat is _itself_ a problem:
>>>
>>> % git grep 'define _KERNEL' .
>>> [...]
>>> lib/libprocstat/cd9660.c:#define _KERNEL
>>> lib/libprocstat/nwfs.c:#define _KERNEL
>>> lib/libprocstat/smbfs.c:#define _KERNEL
>>> lib/libprocstat/udf.c:#define _KERNEL
>>> lib/libprocstat/zfs.c:#define _KERNEL
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> ok, I admit this is all FS related stuff :)
>> but at least it comes with the system so it matches.
>>
> no, you should be able to run a FreeBSD 1.0 userland and a 9-RELEASE
> kernel together and have all utilities working. If not, you cannot
> claim to support backward compatibility, even if you do on a subset of
> kernel/userland interface. That said, this is just my personal
> opinion.
>
>> we've been looking for the 'right' way to do this since, hmmm, 1988 that I
>> remember and I bet before that too.
>>
> then the job was done bad.

I didn't say we DID it I said we've been looking for the right answer.
libkvm was a small step... you really don't want to know what was done
before that.

I've run FreeBSD 1.1 on a freeBSD 8 jail so I know what you mean,
you have to put some  things like 'ps' and ifconfig, and 'netstat'
into it (statically compiled) or you can't get anywhere  but even if there
was a differnt interface, the likelyhood of it still being valid after 
19 years
pretty small.



> I will repeat myself here, but I ran what-was-to-become-Linux-v3.2
> kernel on a 4 years old openwrt image and still had a functional
> system. Comparatively, I could not mix FreeBSD 7-STABLE userland and
> 8-STABLE kernel, The 8-STABLE kernel even changed the FS enough to
> make FreeBSD 7 unable to boot (even single user).
actually due to libkvm there are actually a lot of programs that will 
work over the
7-8 boundary...  a lot more than used to. between, say 2 and 3.

> Let me emphasize again that it is only my personal opinion :-)
Yep but its shared.. Unfortunately the problem is actually trickier 
than first appears.
My own attempt at it can be seen with netgraph, where we instituted a 
text based
config scheme, and in geom where PHK made an XML config scheme.

>   - Arnaud
>




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