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Date:      Fri,  8 Oct 1999 17:51:11 -0400 (EDT)
From:      Thomas Valentino Crimi <tcrimi+@andrew.cmu.edu>
To:        Brett Glass <brett@lariat.org>
Cc:        chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: Targeting the server: Not such a good idea?
Message-ID:  <4rzaRDa00Uw_1CoKk0@andrew.cmu.edu>
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991008111822.0453a530@localhost>
References:  <4.2.0.58.19991008083634.044de740@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19991008111822.0453a530@localhost>

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  The question in my mind, though, is:

  "What can one add to the kernel to make FreeBSD a better desktop
environment?"

  And the answer, is... nothing (almost).

  The OS's job is to get mouse and keyboard clicks to the appropriate
programs, manage their resources, and otherwise let the number crunchers
keep crunching, and the netscapes keeps scaping.  Not a single new
kernel feature or utility is really going to change the fact that 99% of
the Desktop "experience" is up to the Gnome/KDE guys.  

  In terms of code, FreeBSD is fairly well latched onto Linux's train of
development as far as X and window managers go..  if anything, FreeBSD
can at least state that they are commited to keeping KDE and Gnome
well-ported and up to date, and have stated support for the programs
(which I feel already exists) which Desktop users may wish to use. 
Marketing and visibility, Brett, are your cup of tea, and maybe you
should go about and state the following things:

   A excellent kernel for servers can be just as good for desktops.  At
the kernel level, so long as you don't attempt to do things like bring X
or OpenGL into the kernel and shoot robustness in the head you work on
what is essentially 'server' stuff, the better your networking code, the
better your paging code, etc, the better you'll run as a Desktop.  

   Desktop is -ALL- about KDE/Gnome, FreeBSD's ports people are
committed to staying current with the latest in those group's
development, the groups themselves are aware of portability.  And an X
desktop on FreeBSD looks exactly the same as an X Desktop on Linux.  And
the work that goes into making networking and vm operations more
efficient will pay off.

   The job of the FreeBSD group is to make the best underlying OS
possible.  There aren't nearly enough commiters to make the
WordProcessors, spreadsheets, cute window managers and graphical mp3
players the world wants.  Go into the ports tree, though, and they're
all there for you.  FreeBSD is doing all it can to be the best Desktop
unix system possible IMHO.  Obviously, people making xamp aren't FreeBSD
developers, per se, but their efforts are felt as much by us FreeBSD
users as they are by all other users of Unix.  

  In short, this is admittedly a matter of perception, not reality.  I
think people should listen to Brett in that if we are using what would
make not only a nifty server OS, but a good desktop one as well.  Lets
clearly state it.  Let's also make clear, though, that FreeBSD is merely
the support for a good desktop, and that a desktop is really
X/Gnome/KDE.  FreeBSD just happens to run apps very well, wether they be
single or multiuser.

 And here I present some random crap, probably with a few deep errors
here and there:

  GUI configuration is lacking, admittedly.  With the new
/etc/defaults/rc.conf vs /etc/rc.conf files, I wouldn't think it would
be impossible to configure the system, possibly ppp, and begin to move
yet closer to a fully GUI system.  One has to be VERY careful though,
because rarely have I found GUI to mean simpler.  Very often when doing
Linux tech support at an internship this summer I found it easier to ask
the person on to "cd /etc" and fire up vi.  Once confused, GUI
configuration tools are sheer hell to work with.
  Which brings up another thing.  If Linux were to 'take over' as the
Desktop OS of choice.. you wouldn't have to retrain your stuff to handle
FreeBSD, or many unicies for that matter.  I almost never use Linux
systems, but given a quick perusal of the startup scripts and the odd
man page, I'm right back at home.  
  At a certain level, a server will never be equivalent to a desktop. 
You can have the same Kernel and core concepts, sure, (this is what I am
asserting.. that a good kernel can be both a good desktop and server,
but 

  The REAL problem, frankly, is in Xserverland..  FreeBSD can never
install and boot you into X because it still takes a somewhat
knowledgable human to configure.  This seems to be changing as of
release 4.




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