Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 09:03:35 +0200 From: Michael Gmelin <grembo@freebsd.org> To: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> Cc: Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@freebsd.org>, Warner Losh <imp@freebsd.org>, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Updating reboot's default Message-ID: <546C53F4-E30F-4DAF-BE33-B1772A23ABAE@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfrO-V5756-EAnsbPXFALXFysDoedat%2Bs36NB0aUmu2fjQ@mail.gmail.com> References: <CANCZdfrO-V5756-EAnsbPXFALXFysDoedat%2Bs36NB0aUmu2fjQ@mail.gmail.com>
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--Apple-Mail-6986E708-BC30-405F-A67C-32925770B633 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 22. Jun 2022, at 04:03, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >=20 >=20 >> On Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 6:35 PM Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@freebsd.org> wrot= e: >> On Tuesday, 21 June 2022 at 8:01:58 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: >> > 15 or 20 years ago, we talked about changing the default for reboot fro= m >> > 'right now' to being safe shutdown. There were arguments made against i= t >> > due to tiny appliances and such. >> > >> > Time has past, and this oddity has persisted. It's time to revisit that= >> > decision. >> > >> > I'd propose that we keep 'fastboot' and 'fasthalt' having the immediate= >> > behavior. However, the 'reboot' command will switch from '-q' behavior t= o >> > '-r' behavior. >>=20 >> Somehow I hear this echo "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". My >> understanding has always been that shutdown(8) is the program that >> shuts down and maybe reboots the system, while reboot(8) is a quick >> and dirty way to reboot the system, along with halt(8) if you don't >> want to reboot. >>=20 >> So why change this? At the very least you'll confuse people who want >> to use the old method. My guess is that you have some reason that's >> not immediately apparent, but what? >=20 >=20 > Other systems have the behavior I'm advocating. We are the odd duck. This m= eans we tend to violate POLA here. And there is no good reason to do this wh= en fastboot is available. Nobody that advocated to keep this difference as u= seful the last time it came up still wants to advocate. Most people find the= behavior annoying and only a vanishingly small minority of people like it. I= n fact, so far nobody has even asked to please not, let alone come up with a= good reason to retain this behavior. So, I'm polling arch@ to see if anyone= like that shows up. >=20 Well, to be honest, I=E2=80=99m used to the current behavior and would prefe= r to keep it (POLA for existing users). I didn=E2=80=99t answer to advocate a= gainst the change as 1. I have no metric to counter your argument that this is a real problem for= people used to other OSes (neither how many people pick up FreeBSD in gener= al nor how many are unpleasantly surprised by how `reboot` works) 2. I will certainly be able to adapt and get used to the new behavior 3. Given the amount of change in the world right now, it=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9C= pick your battles=E2=80=9D situation. There is and will be so much to suck u= p, arguing about this with someone who clearly put some thought into it seem= s like a waste of everybody=E2=80=99s time. Cheers Michael > Warner=20 >=20 >=20 >> And no, I don't really have an axe to grind in this matter. >>=20 >> Greg >> -- >> Sent from my desktop computer. >> See complete headers for address and phone numbers. >> This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program >> reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php --Apple-Mail-6986E708-BC30-405F-A67C-32925770B633 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D= utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br= ></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On 22. Jun 2022, at 04= :03, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><bl= ockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br>= <br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue,= Jun 21, 2022, 6:35 PM Greg 'groggy' Lehey <<a href=3D"mailto:grog@freebs= d.org">grog@freebsd.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q= uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex= ">On Tuesday, 21 June 2022 at 8:01:58 -0600, Warner Losh wrote:<br> > 15 or 20 years ago, we talked about changing the default for reboot fro= m<br> > 'right now' to being safe shutdown. There were arguments made against i= t<br> > due to tiny appliances and such.<br> ><br> > Time has past, and this oddity has persisted. It's time to revisit that= <br> > decision.<br> ><br> > I'd propose that we keep 'fastboot' and 'fasthalt' having the immediate= <br> > behavior. However, the 'reboot' command will switch from '-q' behavior t= o<br> > '-r' behavior.<br> <br> Somehow I hear this echo "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". My<br> understanding has always been that shutdown(8) is the program that<br> shuts down and maybe reboots the system, while reboot(8) is a quick<br> and dirty way to reboot the system, along with halt(8) if you don't<br> want to reboot.<br> <br> So why change this? At the very least you'll confuse people who want<b= r> to use the old method. My guess is that you have some reason that's<br= > not immediately apparent, but what?<br></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"= auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Other systems have the behavior I'm advoca= ting. We are the odd duck. This means we tend to violate POLA here. And ther= e is no good reason to do this when fastboot is available. Nobody that advoc= ated to keep this difference as useful the last time it came up still wants t= o advocate. Most people find the behavior annoying and only a vanishingly sm= all minority of people like it. In fact, so far nobody has even asked to ple= ase not, let alone come up with a good reason to retain this behavior. So, I= 'm polling arch@ to see if anyone like that shows up.</div><div dir=3D"auto"= ><br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Well, to be honest, I= =E2=80=99m used to the current behavior and would prefer to keep it (POLA fo= r existing users). I didn=E2=80=99t answer to advocate against the change as= </div><div><br></div><div>1. I have no metric to counter your argument that t= his is a real problem for people used to other OSes (neither how many people= pick up FreeBSD in general nor how many are unpleasantly surprised by how `= reboot` works)</div><div>2. I will certainly be able to adapt and get used t= o the new behavior</div><div>3. Given the amount of change in the world righ= t now, it=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cpick your battles=E2=80=9D situation. There i= s and will be so much to suck up, arguing about this with someone who clearl= y put some thought into it seems like a waste of everybody=E2=80=99s time.</= div><div><br></div><div>Cheers</div><div>Michael</div><br><blockquote type=3D= "cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"auto">Warner </di= v><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">= <div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin= :0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> And no, I don't really have an axe to grind in this matter.<br> <br> Greg<br> --<br> Sent from my desktop computer.<br> See complete headers for address and phone numbers.<br> This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program<br> reports problems, please read <a href=3D"http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php" re= l=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.ph= p</a><br> </blockquote></div></div></div> </div></blockquote></body></html>= --Apple-Mail-6986E708-BC30-405F-A67C-32925770B633--
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