Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 13:05:24 -0500 From: Allan Jude <allanjude@freebsd.org> To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: libXO-ification - Why - and is it a symptom of deeper issues? Message-ID: <5648C964.2020405@freebsd.org> In-Reply-To: <0650CA79-5711-44BF-AC3F-0C5C5B6E5BD9@rdsor.ro> References: <0650CA79-5711-44BF-AC3F-0C5C5B6E5BD9@rdsor.ro>
next in thread | previous in thread | raw e-mail | index | archive | help
This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156)
--tquaVwxoVS1qpQhDmhIFx023vRw0xvgrm
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 2015-11-15 07:54, Dan Partelly wrote:
>=20
> Hi all,
>=20
> I was looking at the new facility of dumping JSON,XML from many utils i=
n base and after some funny minutes, I couldn't stop ask myself =E2=80=9C=
Ok, this is funny , but why ? =E2=80=9C And I couldn't find a real answe=
r. Ill outline what I think:
>=20
>=20
> 1. Undoubtedly, it makes base code slightly harder to understand and ma=
intain.=20
I am not sure that libxo actually makes the code any harder to
understand and maintain. It might actually make it slightly better.
replacing:
printf("%s %s %d\n", foo, bar, number);
with:
xo_emit("{:foo/%s} {:bar/%s} {:number/%d}", foo, bar, number);
it not really hurting much.
> 2. I have seen the idea that this makes the information dumped by utili=
ties in the base easily accessible programatically. OK, maybe it does , b=
ut
> it doesn't fit with the current paradigm of "tool | filter | tool=E2=80=
=9D at all. There are no tools able to accept JSON and filter it in any m=
eaningful way, and I
> dont see too many ppl changing their code to read JSON instead of text.=
I don't even see the base tools changing. This output may be useful in =
corner cases only.
> 3. The integration of libxo IMO only points at a much deeper issue IMO.=
It is only an expression of the need of a mechanism aimed at binary code=
reuse. But it does not solve the problem, it only adds yet another possi=
bility in a world where too much choices already result in too much split=
s and incompatible APIs.=20
> 4. This whole effort would have been IMO much better served by porting=
the bulk of ifconfig(8) , route(8) and wpaclient(8) to a library API, mu=
ch like the libs for geom, zfs , etc , ready for reuse of 3rd party code.=
Eventually writing network control daemons in time over it , much like s=
olaris does.
>=20
> 5. A port of partial OS config data to UCL =E2=80=A6. would induce yet =
induce another orthogonality violation. What makes UCL better than the be=
stiary of ad hoc databases already existing in BSDs ? Programatic readabi=
lity, yes. but it does not add any real much needed functionality such as=
*transactional databases* for system tools. Why not research a proper =
solution - easily accessible by other programs ,orthogonal , transactiona=
l, and ACL protected solution which can be used all over the place , f=
rom OS boot, to ABI management, service management, network management, u=
ser management. I hope this day will come, a day when I will not have to=
edit a single config file manually, yet I would have access to all the c=
onfig and system state easy with wrapper APIs. In the light of this poin=
t, why go with UCL ? It is not orthogonal, it is not transnational, and e=
diting the config files directly would result in the same old human error=
s which bite as all from time to time.
>=20
> 5. It is my opinion that Solaris addressed some of those issue. Solaris=
FMRI and SMF are lightyears ahead of the very tired models we keep using=
on BSDs. Why not build on the insight offered by those (or even on the i=
nsight offered by Windows :P) , then inventing more adhoc solutions and a=
d-hoc databases, which do not address the real issues we have , like bina=
ry code reuse, service management issues, lack of a system wide publishe=
d -subscriber bus ( not kdbus :P ) fault detection and reaction, fault re=
porting, all much needed parts of a modern OS.=20
>=20
> And now thee questions
>=20
> 1. Why lib XO ? Why burden the OS for some corner cases where it may be=
useful ?
>=20
> 2. Was there any real talk on how to bring FreeBSD up to speed regardin=
g those issues ? A period of research on what exists, on what can be don=
e , and ensure important things are not showed in background and replaced=
with yet another ad-hoc config database which lacks modern features ?
> From where I am standing, this could be a project spawning multiple yea=
rs , but it would be well worth it, and in my opinion it would be also wo=
rthy of=20
> the freeSBD foundation sponsorship for several years in a row. The feat=
ures I touched upon became very important parts of oder OSes, and rightly=
so.=20
>=20
> Note:
>=20
> this message is serious and it is not intended to start flame wars, rel=
igious crusades, or offend anyone.=20
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
> https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe@freebsd.o=
rg"
>=20
--=20
Allan Jude
--tquaVwxoVS1qpQhDmhIFx023vRw0xvgrm
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc"
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (MingW32)
iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJWSMlkAAoJEBmVNT4SmAt+OI8QAJAiDDNMt/ww9ggGcTL6zVhh
2ABJrP+pNwBmnFjjShn5tn86L4pmk6l2xCo+cxUaApP6YlNnJcsrRigfLE6B+B/V
rrZP+wFzYpdTFVoNRP8a07+MhhczVrIXc5tj6HsZTP2WvsYYdqNzEATJxBQNjmBn
J3PNGrNTNpejIdcY2Ox5XqnzkXQ/bXCC4M6ZELPZ3uuyOVXHXBl+4lNZ2nCDG+kW
YI9YJ5tDgYaveCH8A+rm9M3VZnH+5YGE10N7486ljiSbWU8HgJuaFN/lSSM7V9Hu
04WGQjuO+gME4us1J8P3Zv8bHt0BWDhqgK5DBmS4/ITY6BoKl8KtREWGhrfEev1O
hQ4/f2rB5C3/wfbmLcRgD0xeUaU/IYsgjIi/TqRG4kdYoCn+RkCm71CZLLhBt8IM
GV0CwsPB5hAN6IHBbiT7T9iRgIuILFqSLrnR8/Cnao3dlT7mpXKECqYByub46kGT
hv6LT40Mik8BGuSZoXcFeU45uu8QV7p+UgN6iz9AhOazafYZTnzsD2b0GlC/rSPm
guAZtjppzUIJr2hVGebaQi5IWhvuRgrV8MhyW5Ut5UFt3A8UHJAUt3VDUpeQfZKk
KXvB5wLxbqNrcVWuF7UOTw0BGmpxoejP5O6jKyosrKpjVr4QcwtSLm3uaTmqsrPh
/ig7kXLyZVSY6WdPaxJV
=wv11
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--tquaVwxoVS1qpQhDmhIFx023vRw0xvgrm--
Want to link to this message? Use this URL: <https://mail-archive.FreeBSD.org/cgi/mid.cgi?5648C964.2020405>