Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 12:29:11 +1000 From: Tim Preston <tim@timpreston.net> To: Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> Cc: freebsd-questions <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Docker Message-ID: <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> In-Reply-To: <CA%2B1FSijL50mQ-HveBA4HZeNkSoaORv=aty-15nNLzn9amzY_nw@mail.gmail.com> References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <CA%2B1FSij9j922Nvv1Vhn43HznwpyGT99UZsU674G9hHWzR=UhvQ@mail.gmail.com> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <CA%2B1FSijc%2B-OLNsyFNdR=jP3VzMi4zUE92i5iv9Pfg6AryDy_KQ@mail.gmail.com> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <CA%2B1FSihVrJ8cZ4ZU6mMr0sKJsZ98V4fh2vpDLugw7MGj-%2BEBPg@mail.gmail.com> <CA%2B1FSijL50mQ-HveBA4HZeNkSoaORv=aty-15nNLzn9amzY_nw@mail.gmail.com>
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------KCph7LhRZE0vFG0fiFF3JOa0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Mario, I may not have been clear enough in my last email. Docker will NEVER run on FreeBSD, because Docker is built on technologies which only exist in the Linux kernel. FreeBSD cannot run Linux containers, it can only run FreeBSD jails. It's not because FreeBSD programmers think they're more special than Linux programmers, it's just not technically possible. If you want to run any of the Docker images available on the internet you can try the tooling linked by Dave, which MIGHT let you run SOME Docker images inside a FreeBSD jail, using FreeBSD's Linux compatibility layer. But these images really require a Linux kernel to run properly. A better approach, if the applications you want to run are available in ports, or if the source code builds on FreeBSD, is to run them natively in a jail using tools similar to Docker like Bastille (https://bastillebsd.org/) or Pot (https://github.com/bsdpot/pot). I hope some of this helps. Tim On Tue, 11 Apr 2023, at 8:45 PM, Mario Marietto wrote: > ---> If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, > yes,use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there are many > FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic > people. It's ok to use different tools in different situations. > > But home users usually are poor people. To have a good computer means > often to be lucky. I mainly use FreeBSD because I feel good when I use > many of its tools. But it often happens that I also need to be able to > have some different tool that I like because I tried it in a different > system and I liked it. Docker is one of those tools. Users love > it,even today,but it is becoming old. For sure there are good > technical reasons behind this "love". The development of Docker on > FreeBSD stopped a lot of years ago. And the reasons for that stop is > not only caused by technical reasons,in my opinion,but,as I said,even > by a form of discrimination. The storic FreeBSD users have been > trained using its own tools and they won't change. They don't want to > spend money to develop a new/oldtool that will enrich the tools park ? > This mindset is not focused on the satisfaction of those users that > could migrate or that want to try FreeBSD,after having used another > OS. It is some kind ofsectarian mentality. Yes I can run a VM running > Linux,but this will waste resources on the machine. Why should I run a > whole VM if I need only to run a tool ? If the tool is not widely > used,ok,developing it is not worth it. But we are talking of widely > used tools here and Docker is one of those tools. > > On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:26 PM Mario Marietto > <marietto2008@gmail.com> wrote: > > For sure there are users / developers that are in the middle,like > it happens in the political area. I like this kind of person. I'm > one of those people. My criticism is against those users and > developers that show an exaggerated "love" and fidelity towards a > system, whether by ideology, whether by habit, or by commercial > reasons. I'm afrequent visitor to various freebsd forums and I > often read opinionsradicalized on linux technologies that should > not enter the freebsd world, simply because in Freebsd there are > already excellent tools that do their job well. Yes,they work > well,but why not add more and different tools thatwhich would > allow the creation of bridges between different operating systems ? > > On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:17 PM Dave Cottlehuber > <dch@skunkwerks.at> wrote: > > On Tue, 11 Apr 2023, at 09:44, Mario Marietto wrote: > > Tim,you are wasting your time. It seems that all of these (good) > > FreeBSD developers don't want you to use Linux technologies > if you have > > chosen FreeBSD as the main OS. That's not good and it sounds > like a > > discriminatory attitude. > > I think you're mis-representing the position of a lot of > people here; > please don't do that. > > The fast-moving Docker.com tech has been moving towards a > standards-based > "Open Container" https://opencontainers.org/ definition, and > many people > have worked across the standard, the implementation, kernel, & > tooling, > now in ports on FreeBSD, to make this possible. Just a few > examples: > > - https://github.com/samuelkarp/runj/ > - https://github.com/dfr/ocijail/ > - https://medium.com/@dfr/oci-containers-for-freebsd-512a6df2bc85 > > It would be great to get your feedback on one of these and see > what you > tried, and where it breaks with your expectations. > > While it may be possible to run many linux containers with > this tooling, > systemd and other linux-specific things could be present in > any container > you pull, from systemd, to filesystem requirements, and > expecting all > of these to work seamlessly is unrealistic. > > If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, > yes, > use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there > are many > FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large > pragmatic people. > It's ok to use different tools in different situations. > > A+ > Dave > > > > -- > Mario. > > > > -- > Mario. --------------KCph7LhRZE0vFG0fiFF3JOa0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit <html> <head> <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"> <title></title> <style type="text/css">p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0}</style> </head> <body> <div>Hi Mario,<br> </div> <div><br> </div> I may not have been clear enough in my last email.<br> <div><br> </div> <div>Docker will NEVER run on FreeBSD, because Docker is built on technologies which only exist in the Linux kernel.<br> <br> FreeBSD cannot run Linux containers, it can only run FreeBSD jails.<br> <br> It's not because FreeBSD programmers think they're more special than Linux programmers, it's just not technically possible.<br> <br> If you want to run any of the Docker images available on the internet you can try the tooling linked by Dave, which MIGHT let you run SOME Docker images inside a FreeBSD jail, using FreeBSD's Linux compatibility layer. But these images really require a Linux kernel to run properly.<br> <br> A better approach, if the applications you want to run are available in ports, or if the source code builds on FreeBSD, is to run them natively in a jail using tools similar to Docker like Bastille (<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://bastillebsd.org/">https://bastillebsd.org/</a>) or Pot (<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/bsdpot/pot">https://github.com/bsdpot/pot</a>).<br>; <br> I hope some of this helps.<br> <br> Tim<br> <br> <br> </div> <div>On Tue, 11 Apr 2023, at 8:45 PM, Mario Marietto wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote type="cite" id="qt" style=""> <div dir="ltr"> <div>---> If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, yes,use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there are many<br> </div> <div>FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic people. It's ok to use different tools in different situations.<br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div>But home users usually are poor people. To have a good computer means often to be lucky. I mainly use FreeBSD because I feel good when I use many of its tools. But it often happens that I also need to be able to have some different tool that I like because I tried it in a different system and I liked it. Docker is one of those tools. Users love it,even today,but it is becoming old. For sure there are good technical reasons behind this "love". The development of Docker on FreeBSD stopped a lot of years ago. And the reasons for that stop is not only caused by technical reasons,in my opinion,but,as I said,even by a form of discrimination. The storic FreeBSD users have been trained using its own tools and they won't change. They don't want to spend money to develop a new/old<span class="qt-gmail-Y2IQFc" lang="en"> tool that will enrich the tools park ? This mindset is not focused on the satisfaction of those users that could migrate or that want to try FreeBSD,after having used another OS. It is some kind of</span><span class="qt-gmail-Y2IQFc" lang="en"> sectarian mentality. Yes I can run a VM running Linux,but this will waste resources on the machine. Why should I run a whole VM if I need only to run a tool ? If the tool is not widely used,ok,</span><span class="qt-gmail-Y2IQFc" lang="en">developing it is not worth it. But we are talking of widely used tools here and Docker is one of those tools.</span><span class="qt-gmail-Y2IQFc" lang="en"></span><span class="qt-gmail-Y2IQFc" lang="en"></span><span class="qt-gmail-Y2IQFc" lang="en"></span><br> </div> </div> <div><br> </div> <div class="qt-gmail_quote"> <div dir="ltr" class="qt-gmail_attr">On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:26 PM Mario Marietto <<a href="mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">marietto2008@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote class="qt-gmail_quote" style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);border-left-style:solid;border-left-width:1px;padding-left:1ex;"> <div dir="ltr">For sure there are users / developers that are in the middle,like it happens in the political area. I like this kind of person. I'm one of those people. My criticism is against those users and developers that show a<span lang="en">n exaggerated "love" and fidelity towards a system, whether by ideology, whether by habit, or by commercial reasons. I'm a</span><span lang="en"> frequent visitor to various freebsd forums and I often read opinions</span><span lang="en"> radicalized on linux technologies that should not enter the freebsd world, simply because in Freebsd there are already excellent tools that do their job well. Yes,they work well,but why not add more and different tools that</span><span lang="en"> which would allow the creation of bridges between different operating systems ?</span><span lang="en"></span><span lang="en"></span><br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div class="qt-gmail_quote"> <div dir="ltr" class="qt-gmail_attr">On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:17 PM Dave Cottlehuber <<a href="mailto:dch@skunkwerks.at" target="_blank" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">dch@skunkwerks.at</a>> wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote class="qt-gmail_quote" style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);border-left-style:solid;border-left-width:1px;padding-left:1ex;"> <div>On Tue, 11 Apr 2023, at 09:44, Mario Marietto wrote:<br> </div> <div>> Tim,you are wasting your time. It seems that all of these (good)<br> </div> <div>> FreeBSD developers don't want you to use Linux technologies if you have<br> </div> <div>> chosen FreeBSD as the main OS. That's not good and it sounds like a<br> </div> <div>> discriminatory attitude. <br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div>I think you're mis-representing the position of a lot of people here;<br> </div> <div>please don't do that.<br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div>The fast-moving Docker.com tech has been moving towards a standards-based<br> </div> <div>"Open Container" <a href="https://opencontainers.org/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://opencontainers.org/</a>; definition, and many people<br> </div> <div>have worked across the standard, the implementation, kernel, & tooling,<br> </div> <div>now in ports on FreeBSD, to make this possible. Just a few examples:<br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div>- <a href="https://github.com/samuelkarp/runj/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://github.com/samuelkarp/runj/</a><br>; </div> <div>- <a href="https://github.com/dfr/ocijail/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://github.com/dfr/ocijail/</a><br>; </div> <div>- <a href="https://medium.com/@dfr/oci-containers-for-freebsd-512a6df2bc85" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://medium.com/@dfr/oci-containers-for-freebsd-512a6df2bc85</a><br>; </div> <div><br> </div> <div>It would be great to get your feedback on one of these and see what you<br> </div> <div>tried, and where it breaks with your expectations.<br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div>While it may be possible to run many linux containers with this tooling,<br> </div> <div>systemd and other linux-specific things could be present in any container<br> </div> <div>you pull, from systemd, to filesystem requirements, and expecting all<br> </div> <div>of these to work seamlessly is unrealistic.<br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div>If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, yes,<br> </div> <div>use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there are many<br> </div> <div>FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic people.<br> </div> <div>It's ok to use different tools in different situations.<br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div>A+<br> </div> <div>Dave<br> </div> </blockquote> </div> <div><br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div><span>--</span><br> </div> <div dir="ltr">Mario.<br> </div> </blockquote> </div> <div><br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div><span class="qt-gmail_signature_prefix">--</span><br> </div> <div dir="ltr" class="qt-gmail_signature">Mario.<br> </div> </blockquote> <div><br> </div> </body> </html> --------------KCph7LhRZE0vFG0fiFF3JOa0--
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