Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 07:50:45 +0000 From: Mark Blackman <mark@exonetric.com> To: Grzegorz Junka <list1@gjunka.com> Cc: Stefan Bethke <stb@lassitu.de>, freebsd-virtualization@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The status of docker Message-ID: <94964BDE-7B14-424B-88A5-4D8F4A9AAC56@exonetric.com> In-Reply-To: <a63ae2e5-28ba-5946-a8b6-28d29007ea7a@gjunka.com> References: <089e330d-2761-2440-3b7f-dd22e9088af5@gjunka.com> <929CF558-E8CC-4F7D-9C30-DDD63C17861D@lassitu.de> <a63ae2e5-28ba-5946-a8b6-28d29007ea7a@gjunka.com>
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What problem are you trying to solve with docker? > On 30 Jan 2019, at 20:36, Grzegorz Junka <list1@gjunka.com> wrote: >=20 >> On 27/01/2019 13:59, Stefan Bethke wrote: >>> Am 19.01.2019 um 15:24 schrieb Grzegorz Junka <list1@gjunka.com>: >>> Hello, does anyone know the current status of docker on FreeBSD? Wiki ht= tps://wiki.freebsd.org/Docker states it's experimental. The last commit in h= ttps://github.com/kvasdopil/docker/tree/freebsd-compat is also from 2015. >>>=20 >>> There in fact are two ports, freebsd-docker (from 2015) and docker (18.0= 6). What's the difference between them and which one should I use to run doc= ker images on FreeBSD host? >> I believe at this point in time, all you can do is have a Linux machine s= omewhere (for example, in a local Bhyve VM), and use the Docker command line= client from FreeBSD to manage it. That=E2=80=99s what sysutils/docker is fo= r. >>=20 >>> Has this project been completed and now only needs testing, or has it be= en abandoned, or maybe the approach has changed and I am looking in a wrong p= lace? >> It looks abandoned, unfortunately. And looking at the entire container i= nfrastructure, reviving it would require a significant effort. For example, i= t most real-life usage scenarios, you want to be able to manipulate IPFW/PF e= ntries to forward ports from a host interface into a container, which would r= equire special plugins for Docker, or a compatibility shim that allows Docke= r to use iptables APIs/ABIs. >>=20 >> Going even further, pretty much everything in the ecosystem (k8s, etc.) a= ssumes it's running on top of a Linux kernel including a number of managemen= t APIs that are not (completely) emulated on FreeBSD. >>=20 >> While I would love to see proper Docker support in FreeBSD, I=E2=80=99m n= ot sure its even the right thing to aim for. In Docker production environmen= ts, people generally try to pare down the host OS to the absolute minimum, a= nd at that point, what benefit would you derive from FreeBSD as a host? >>=20 >> Similarly, why would you want to run FreeBSD-ABI containers, specifically= ? One of the benefits of the container ecosystem is that there are many read= y-made images you can build on. Having to re-invent all of this seems of lit= tle benefit to me. >=20 > There is nothing docker-like in FreeBSD. Sure, we have jails and bhyve but= they are faaar from the convenience and support of docker containers that y= ou can pull directly from docker hub and have a complete application running= in a few lines of code. >=20 > I am working on a project which uses two containers to run the back end - o= ne is a customized container running Stellar + a DB and one running an off-t= he-shelf container with PostgreSQL. The middle layer is nodejs+GraphQL and f= ront-end is React. It takes literally 30 minutes on a MacBook Pro from the m= oment you git clone sources from github to when you have the complete develo= pment environment running. >=20 > However, I spent a day trying to make it run in FreeBSD bhyve. Half of tha= t time took preparing the FreeBSD host and installing and configuring a Linu= x host for containers in bhyve. But once everything was installed, nothing a= ctually worked because the docker containers couldn't communicate with each o= ther for some reason. I suspected some network issues within the Linux host a= nd spent the other half of that time trying to sort it out. >=20 > Now if you consider that the cost of a MacBook Pro is a few days worth of w= ork, why bother spending time (and money) trying develop the code on a FreeB= SD? And if an AWS VM or other hardware is able to run the same already confi= gured docker environment from a Mac, why bother spending time (and money) tr= ying to run it on a FreeBSD server instead of a Linux server? >=20 > Currently the only reasons when someone might actually consider running Fre= eBSD server are: ZFS and/or jails (but for that you may also need to add Ill= uminOS and SmartOS to the list of choices) or when you already have teams/sy= stems running FreeBSD. Ports are not a reason for choosing FreeBSD because A= rch Linux also supports a rolling release model. >=20 > In many ways FreeBSD reminds me Amiga - I tried to use it for development,= not just as a hobby at home, but also during my studies or work, and I was v= ery proud when I could achieve, often with great effort, what others on IBM P= C (and now Linux) had for granted. But at some point the effort of going aga= inst the flow was becoming too expensive, not only in terms of money or time= , but also in more difficult to measure terms of missing opportunities. >=20 > I realize that running docker natively on FreeBSD is difficult and may see= m pointless. But for me it's a matter of using FreeBSD or not. If I can make= it working, maybe with some reasonable effort, that would be great and I wo= uld try. But if not, well, then it's hasta la vista, baby (for this project f= or now). >=20 > GrzegorzJ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-virtualization@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-virtualization > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-virtualization-unsubscribe@freeb= sd.org"
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