Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 15:38:47 +0200 From: Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> To: Tim Preston <tim@timpreston.net> Cc: freebsd-questions <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Docker Message-ID: <CA%2B1FSigV_pPwVW%2BDd8WZYGcNQVt7%2BYOcsnJFoRhS6jL5A636pg@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <CA%2B1FSij9j922Nvv1Vhn43HznwpyGT99UZsU674G9hHWzR=UhvQ@mail.gmail.com> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <CA%2B1FSijc%2B-OLNsyFNdR=jP3VzMi4zUE92i5iv9Pfg6AryDy_KQ@mail.gmail.com> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <CA%2B1FSihVrJ8cZ4ZU6mMr0sKJsZ98V4fh2vpDLugw7MGj-%2BEBPg@mail.gmail.com> <CA%2B1FSijL50mQ-HveBA4HZeNkSoaORv=aty-15nNLzn9amzY_nw@mail.gmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net>
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[-- Attachment #1 --] ---> Docker will NEVER run on FreeBSD, because Docker is built on technologies which only exist in the Linux kernel. I don't agree with this. In my humble opinion Docker can run on FreeBSD. For sure,not using the same technology that it uses on Linux. FreeBSD does not use the kernel of Linux,so it cannot lean on it,but I'm sure that it can lean on a lot of linux features that have already been implemented on FreeBSD. Maybe they should be improved. And on some other technologies that can be created almost from scratch. In my opinion Docker does not work in FreeBSD not for technical reasons. I'm sure that the technical problems can be solved if there is the will,the need to overcome them. Honestly I think it doesn't happen because there are habits and internal beliefs in every group of OS developers. I'm talking about a certain type of closed-mindedness and sense of belonging in a group that you don't want to be scratched by tools that come from other types of OS cultures. Docker is not needed in FreeBSD because there are already similar tools that are working well and many systems engineers have spent time and money to learn how to administer them. If docker were implemented, these system administrators would continue to use their favorite tools (jails), even in the industry / market there are just as many well done. Probably a very few FreeBSD admins even want an influx of users from linux who could switch to freebsd because of that tool that wasn't there before but "now" it is there. On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 4:29 AM Tim Preston <tim@timpreston.net> wrote: > Hi Mario, > > I may not have been clear enough in my last email. > > Docker will NEVER run on FreeBSD, because Docker is built on technologies > which only exist in the Linux kernel. > > FreeBSD cannot run Linux containers, it can only run FreeBSD jails. > > It's not because FreeBSD programmers think they're more special than Linux > programmers, it's just not technically possible. > > If you want to run any of the Docker images available on the internet you > can try the tooling linked by Dave, which MIGHT let you run SOME Docker > images inside a FreeBSD jail, using FreeBSD's Linux compatibility layer. > But these images really require a Linux kernel to run properly. > > A better approach, if the applications you want to run are available in > ports, or if the source code builds on FreeBSD, is to run them natively in > a jail using tools similar to Docker like Bastille ( > https://bastillebsd.org/) or Pot (https://github.com/bsdpot/pot). > > I hope some of this helps. > > Tim > > > On Tue, 11 Apr 2023, at 8:45 PM, Mario Marietto wrote: > > ---> If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, > yes,use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there are many > FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic people. > It's ok to use different tools in different situations. > > But home users usually are poor people. To have a good computer means > often to be lucky. I mainly use FreeBSD because I feel good when I use many > of its tools. But it often happens that I also need to be able to have some > different tool that I like because I tried it in a different system and I > liked it. Docker is one of those tools. Users love it,even today,but it is > becoming old. For sure there are good technical reasons behind this "love". > The development of Docker on FreeBSD stopped a lot of years ago. And the > reasons for that stop is not only caused by technical reasons,in my > opinion,but,as I said,even by a form of discrimination. The storic FreeBSD > users have been trained using its own tools and they won't change. They > don't want to spend money to develop a new/old tool that will enrich the > tools park ? This mindset is not focused on the satisfaction of those users > that could migrate or that want to try FreeBSD,after having used another > OS. It is some kind of sectarian mentality. Yes I can run a VM running > Linux,but this will waste resources on the machine. Why should I run a > whole VM if I need only to run a tool ? If the tool is not widely used,ok,developing > it is not worth it. But we are talking of widely used tools here and Docker > is one of those tools. > > On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:26 PM Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> > wrote: > > For sure there are users / developers that are in the middle,like it > happens in the political area. I like this kind of person. I'm one of those > people. My criticism is against those users and developers that show an > exaggerated "love" and fidelity towards a system, whether by ideology, > whether by habit, or by commercial reasons. I'm a frequent visitor to > various freebsd forums and I often read opinions radicalized on linux > technologies that should not enter the freebsd world, simply because in > Freebsd there are already excellent tools that do their job well. Yes,they > work well,but why not add more and different tools that which would allow > the creation of bridges between different operating systems ? > > On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:17 PM Dave Cottlehuber <dch@skunkwerks.at> > wrote: > > On Tue, 11 Apr 2023, at 09:44, Mario Marietto wrote: > > Tim,you are wasting your time. It seems that all of these (good) > > FreeBSD developers don't want you to use Linux technologies if you have > > chosen FreeBSD as the main OS. That's not good and it sounds like a > > discriminatory attitude. > > I think you're mis-representing the position of a lot of people here; > please don't do that. > > The fast-moving Docker.com tech has been moving towards a standards-based > "Open Container" https://opencontainers.org/ definition, and many people > have worked across the standard, the implementation, kernel, & tooling, > now in ports on FreeBSD, to make this possible. Just a few examples: > > - https://github.com/samuelkarp/runj/ > - https://github.com/dfr/ocijail/ > - https://medium.com/@dfr/oci-containers-for-freebsd-512a6df2bc85 > > It would be great to get your feedback on one of these and see what you > tried, and where it breaks with your expectations. > > While it may be possible to run many linux containers with this tooling, > systemd and other linux-specific things could be present in any container > you pull, from systemd, to filesystem requirements, and expecting all > of these to work seamlessly is unrealistic. > > If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, yes, > use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there are many > FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic people. > It's ok to use different tools in different situations. > > A+ > Dave > > > > -- > Mario. > > > > -- > Mario. > > > -- Mario. [-- Attachment #2 --] <div dir="ltr"><div>---> Docker will NEVER run on FreeBSD, because Docker is built on technologies which only exist in the Linux kernel.</div><div><br></div><div>I don't agree with this. In my humble opinion Docker can run on FreeBSD. For sure,not using the same technology that it uses on Linux. FreeBSD does not use the kernel of Linux,so it cannot lean on it,but I'm sure that it can lean on a lot of linux features that have already been implemented on FreeBSD. Maybe they should be improved. And on some other technologies that can be created almost from scratch. In my opinion Docker does not work in FreeBSD not for technical reasons. I'm sure that the technical problems can be solved if there is the will,the need to overcome them.<span class="gmail-Y2IQFc" lang="en"> Honestly I think it doesn't happen because there are habits and internal beliefs in every group of OS developers. I'm talking about a certain type of closed-mindedness and sense of belonging in a group that you don't want to be scratched by tools that come from other types of OS cultures.</span><span class="gmail-Y2IQFc" lang="en"> Docker is not needed in FreeBSD because there are already similar tools that are working well and many systems engineers have spent time and money to learn how to administer them. If docker were implemented, these system administrators would continue to use their favorite tools (jails), even in the industry / market there are just as many well done.</span><span class="gmail-Y2IQFc" lang="en"> Probably a very few FreeBSD admins even want an influx of users from linux who could switch to freebsd because of that tool that wasn't there before but "now" it is there.</span><span class="gmail-Y2IQFc" lang="en"></span><span class="gmail-Y2IQFc" lang="en"></span><span class="gmail-Y2IQFc" lang="en"></span></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 4:29 AM Tim Preston <<a href="mailto:tim@timpreston.net">tim@timpreston.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="msg3188195799709054300"> <div> <div>Hi Mario,<br> </div> <div><br> </div> I may not have been clear enough in my last email.<br> <div><br> </div> <div>Docker will NEVER run on FreeBSD, because Docker is built on technologies which only exist in the Linux kernel.<br> <br> FreeBSD cannot run Linux containers, it can only run FreeBSD jails.<br> <br> It's not because FreeBSD programmers think they're more special than Linux programmers, it's just not technically possible.<br> <br> If you want to run any of the Docker images available on the internet you can try the tooling linked by Dave, which MIGHT let you run SOME Docker images inside a FreeBSD jail, using FreeBSD's Linux compatibility layer. But these images really require a Linux kernel to run properly.<br> <br> A better approach, if the applications you want to run are available in ports, or if the source code builds on FreeBSD, is to run them natively in a jail using tools similar to Docker like Bastille (<a href="https://bastillebsd.org/" target="_blank">https://bastillebsd.org/</a>) or Pot (<a href="https://github.com/bsdpot/pot" target="_blank">https://github.com/bsdpot/pot</a>).<br>; <br> I hope some of this helps.<br> <br> Tim<br> <br> <br> </div> <div>On Tue, 11 Apr 2023, at 8:45 PM, Mario Marietto wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote type="cite" id="m_3188195799709054300qt"> <div dir="ltr"> <div>---> If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, yes,use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there are many<br> </div> <div>FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic people. It's ok to use different tools in different situations.<br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div>But home users usually are poor people. To have a good computer means often to be lucky. I mainly use FreeBSD because I feel good when I use many of its tools. But it often happens that I also need to be able to have some different tool that I like because I tried it in a different system and I liked it. Docker is one of those tools. Users love it,even today,but it is becoming old. For sure there are good technical reasons behind this "love". The development of Docker on FreeBSD stopped a lot of years ago. And the reasons for that stop is not only caused by technical reasons,in my opinion,but,as I said,even by a form of discrimination. The storic FreeBSD users have been trained using its own tools and they won't change. They don't want to spend money to develop a new/old<span lang="en"> tool that will enrich the tools park ? This mindset is not focused on the satisfaction of those users that could migrate or that want to try FreeBSD,after having used another OS. It is some kind of</span><span lang="en"> sectarian mentality. Yes I can run a VM running Linux,but this will waste resources on the machine. Why should I run a whole VM if I need only to run a tool ? If the tool is not widely used,ok,</span><span lang="en">developing it is not worth it. But we are talking of widely used tools here and Docker is one of those tools.</span><span lang="en"></span><span lang="en"></span><span lang="en"></span><br> </div> </div> <div><br> </div> <div> <div dir="ltr">On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:26 PM Mario Marietto <<a href="mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com" target="_blank">marietto2008@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <div dir="ltr">For sure there are users / developers that are in the middle,like it happens in the political area. I like this kind of person. I'm one of those people. My criticism is against those users and developers that show a<span lang="en">n exaggerated "love" and fidelity towards a system, whether by ideology, whether by habit, or by commercial reasons. I'm a</span><span lang="en"> frequent visitor to various freebsd forums and I often read opinions</span><span lang="en"> radicalized on linux technologies that should not enter the freebsd world, simply because in Freebsd there are already excellent tools that do their job well. Yes,they work well,but why not add more and different tools that</span><span lang="en"> which would allow the creation of bridges between different operating systems ?</span><span lang="en"></span><span lang="en"></span><br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div> <div dir="ltr">On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:17 PM Dave Cottlehuber <<a href="mailto:dch@skunkwerks.at" target="_blank">dch@skunkwerks.at</a>> wrote:<br> </div> <blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <div>On Tue, 11 Apr 2023, at 09:44, Mario Marietto wrote:<br> </div> <div>> Tim,you are wasting your time. It seems that all of these (good)<br> </div> <div>> FreeBSD developers don't want you to use Linux technologies if you have<br> </div> <div>> chosen FreeBSD as the main OS. That's not good and it sounds like a<br> </div> <div>> discriminatory attitude. <br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div>I think you're mis-representing the position of a lot of people here;<br> </div> <div>please don't do that.<br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div>The fast-moving Docker.com tech has been moving towards a standards-based<br> </div> <div>"Open Container" <a href="https://opencontainers.org/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://opencontainers.org/</a>; definition, and many people<br> </div> <div>have worked across the standard, the implementation, kernel, & tooling,<br> </div> <div>now in ports on FreeBSD, to make this possible. Just a few examples:<br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div>- <a href="https://github.com/samuelkarp/runj/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://github.com/samuelkarp/runj/</a><br>; </div> <div>- <a href="https://github.com/dfr/ocijail/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://github.com/dfr/ocijail/</a><br>; </div> <div>- <a href="https://medium.com/@dfr/oci-containers-for-freebsd-512a6df2bc85" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://medium.com/@dfr/oci-containers-for-freebsd-512a6df2bc85</a><br>; </div> <div><br> </div> <div>It would be great to get your feedback on one of these and see what you<br> </div> <div>tried, and where it breaks with your expectations.<br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div>While it may be possible to run many linux containers with this tooling,<br> </div> <div>systemd and other linux-specific things could be present in any container<br> </div> <div>you pull, from systemd, to filesystem requirements, and expecting all<br> </div> <div>of these to work seamlessly is unrealistic.<br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div>If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, yes,<br> </div> <div>use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there are many<br> </div> <div>FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic people.<br> </div> <div>It's ok to use different tools in different situations.<br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div>A+<br> </div> <div>Dave<br> </div> </blockquote> </div> <div><br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div><span>--</span><br> </div> <div dir="ltr">Mario.<br> </div> </blockquote> </div> <div><br> </div> <div><br> </div> <div><span>--</span><br> </div> <div dir="ltr">Mario.<br> </div> </blockquote> <div><br> </div> </div> </div></blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">Mario.<br></div>help
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