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Date:      Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:17:10 -0800 (PST)
From:      Tom <tom@sdf.com>
To:        Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
Cc:        Marc Tardif <admin@wtbwts.com>, freebsd-scsi@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: hardware vs software stripping
Message-ID:  <Pine.BSF.4.05.10001302107360.5637-100000@misery.sdf.com>
In-Reply-To: <20000131120326.D62824@freebie.lemis.com>

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On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Greg Lehey wrote:

> On Sunday, 30 January 2000 at 20:04:18 +0000, Marc Tardif wrote:
> > On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Greg Lehey wrote:
> >
> >> On Sunday, 30 January 2000 at 14:24:54 +0000, Marc Tardif wrote:
> >>> ...
> >>> using postgresql. The alternatives are either raid-1 which seems too
> >>> wasteful on disks or raid-5 which provides fault tolerance. This last
> >>> option could substituted for a tape backup and the possibility of a few
> >>> minutes down time in case of disk failure.
> >>
> >> I'm not sure I understand this sentence.  Are you planning to forget
> >> RAID-5 after all and use a tape backup?  For reasonably large disks,
> >> your downtime will be measured in hours, not minutes.  For a RAID-5
> >> array, you shouldn't get any down time.
> >
> > You understood correctly, but I guess you're right. From reading the
> > dpt.com website, hardware failures are caused by hard-drives 50% of the
> > time. Also, from one of Simon Shapiro's posting to this mailing list, I
> > could build a raid 0+5 array which would seem to be an optimal solution
> > for a database performing random reads and writes. Therefore, I should
> > probably forget simply using ccd or vinum for a production system.
> 
> I don't know how you conclude that.  First, the DPT probably won't buy
> you anything in terms of performance, and secondly it's out of
> production.

  Well, since I still can order the DPT 3334, I think its demise is
greatly exagerated...  as far as performance goes, it is not a new design
and can't keep the new disks busy.

  Second, a DPT can't do RAID 5 + 0.  It does the RAID 5 in hardware.  The
RAID 5 you'll have to do in software.



> > There is another problem though, which is that I can't really have a
> > general idea of the amount of space I'll require. Therefore, from my
> > understanding, if I need to expand an array containing an sql db, I'll
> > need to rebuild the whole thing after recreating a new filesystem on the
> > new array. I'd be very relieved if there was an easier way...
> 
> I can't make qualified statements about SQL.

  Depends on the database.  Many databases allow the additional of storage
on any device, so there shouldn't be a problem.

  An Infortrend (see below) can do a transparent copy-and-replace array
expansion.  This however just leaves you with a bigger virtual disk.
FreeBSD has no way to grow a filesystem transparently.  You can disklabel
the addtional space and make a new filesystem though.

> >>> For software, I think freebsd's ccd could provide all the services
> >>> required for very fast i/o on a straight array of disks and at a
> >>> fraction of the cost of the raid alternative. Unfortunately, I have
> >>> never witnessed the virtues of raid myself and I am not in a
> >>> position to make an educated decision. I would therefore appreciate
> >>> if someone from this mailing list could share their experience to
> >>> help with my dilemna.
> >>
> >> Why do you want to use ccd and not vinum?  In any case, you may find
> >> that either are faster than the DPT controller (if you can find one;
> >> they're no longer making them).
> >
> > The more I read about raid, the more I think it could be worthwhile.
> > Although it can be expensive, I want to make sure I get what the server
> > needs. As for getting a DPT controller, what's this about "the DPT
> > controller" not being made anymore? 
> 
> That's my understanding.  Even if you can get one, the performance is
> disappointing.  In addition, I don't think you can't access the
> on-board management software from FreeBSD.

  I don't think you can access the on-board management of any of the HBA
RAID cards under FreeBSD.

  A SCSI-SCSI RAID controller (like a Infortrend or Mylex) is pretty nice.
You can manage them.  The Infortrend support RAID 5 + 0 in hardware.

  As far as vinum goes, I don't see how I can use to make a mirrored
system disk (root and swap).  I don't know if that will even be possible
on x86 architecture.

> Greg
> --
> Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key
> See complete headers for address and phone numbers

Tom



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