Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 22:34:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Wayne Cuddy <wayne@crb-web.com> To: FreeBSD Hackers List <freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG> Subject: Re: Developer assessment (was Re: A bike shed ...) Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9910032222510.8244-100000@crb.crb-web.com> In-Reply-To: <199910040108.SAA08607@dingo.cdrom.com>
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On Sun, 3 Oct 1999, Mike Smith wrote: > Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 18:08:39 -0700 > From: Mike Smith <mike@smith.net.au> > To: wayne@crb-web.com > Subject: Re: Developer assessment (was Re: A bike shed ...) > > > > > As a newbie to kernel programming, who might need a little help and guidance, > > > > the above is certainly true. I can attest to the fact that I have a certain > > > > reluctance to post some of my questions to this list(hackers). I have posted > > > > some in the past, many of which have gone unanswered, to which I know answers > > > > exists. This is certainly not the case in all situations. > > > > > > Are you willing to accept that you may have been judged "not worth the > > > effort" on the content of your questions, or are we going to have > > Yes I am. > > Cool. Note the different between "not worth" and "never will be worth". > > > > another flamewar about whether we should be opening a developers' > > > kindergarten? > > Oh. Ok if this is case where are the guidelines as to what is "worth the > > effort?" This determination is obviously relative. > > Not so much "relative" as subjective (and thus impossible to document). > Use your common sense - if you don't get any replies, it's obvious that > you haven't motivated anyone to reply. It's not that the people you're > trying to wish actively dislike you or want to discourage you. > > > > There is no sense in wasting the time of one informed developer to help > > > one uninformed developer; this is a bad tradeoff unless the uninformed > > > developer is showing signs of promise. The only way to assess this is > > > to look at the questions they ask and the context they're asking them > > > from. Nobody wants to answer one obvious question if there's any > > > chance at all that the questioner will latch onto them and demand > > > answers for dozens more - this isn't "helping someone", it's "doing > > > their work for free". > > You are right I jumped to learning about FreeBSD kernel development, which I > > don't get paid for in any way, so that I could have someone else do it... > > Try to be a little reasonable here, I would not be here if I did not want to > > learn. Which means doing my own work. > > Exactly. But sniping at the readership here for not answering your > messages, or for being continually rude isn't "doing your own work", > it's being childish and blind. > > > I would be hard pressed to read the list for a day and not find a demeaning or > > wasteful comment from some of the developers on this list. So apparently some > > people do have time negative responses. > > This is a popular throwaway line, but not really accurate. > > > Does a helpful response, even a "stupid" one take that much time? I did > > realize how busy you were. > > Yes! Buying into answering one question usefully can involve teaching > you a dozen things before you will understand it. What may seem like a > helpful but flippant response is typically taken as an insult simply > because the average asker is preconditioned from hearing dribble like > your paragraph above into assuming that anything other than a book for > an answer is "dismissal". > > > > So, regardless of whether you've asked a question or not, you need to > > > understand that the onus rests solely on yourself to pursue the answer. > > > They're all there in the code, where everyone else that you're asking > > > has already found them. > > This is absolutely correct and in many cases the most inefficient way to go. > > Crap. It's the most _efficient_ way in terms of return on effort > invested. > > > It is certainly helpful to answer a question that is on the tip of one's > > tongue rather than wading through lines of code especially if it is holding > > up the work of others. > > You make it sound like these "answers" are three-word phrases; as > though someone could just say a few tiny words to you and all would be > clear. If it was that simple, you'd have an answer. > > What irritates me the most is that you and others in your position > won't accept the fact that things are complicated. Oh no, it has to be > these evil nasty people that don't want you to learn. Yeah. That's it. You sure know a lot about me! Are you making these assumptions about me and "others like me" based on what I am posting now or previous postings? I am really sorry you are irritated. > > Too much Joe McCarthy and the X-Files for you, I think. Thanks I will try not to watch so much TV. > > > However you are correct definitive answers are in the > > code... all 1 million+ lines.. > > Correct. Where do you think the rest of us found our answers? What > makes you think we have yours? Pass the bar or find something else > that you _can_ do. I can't draw. I'm a terrible musician. Do I > complain that the artists are keeping all the secrets of easy drawing > to themselves? Do I whine that nobody will just teach me how to play > well, rather than telling me to go back to basics and work through a > million pages of lame tutorials, scales, and so forth? > > There's no magic bullet. Deal with it. How did I not get though life without your words of wisdom? > > -- > \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith > \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ msmith@freebsd.org > \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ msmith@cdrom.com > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
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