Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 23:00:08 +0100 (BST) From: David Marsh <drmarsh@bigfoot.com> To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: FreeBSD Newbies FAK Message-ID: <XFMail.980723234704.drmarsh@bigfoot.com> In-Reply-To: <199807180230.MAA15868@phoenix.welearn.com.au>
next in thread | previous in thread | raw e-mail | index | archive | help
On 18-Jul-98 Sue Blake wrote: > > FreeBSD-Newbies is a discussion forum for newbies. We cover any of > the activities of newbies that are not already dealt with elsewhere. > Examples include helping each other to learn more on our own, finding > and using resources, problem solving techniques, how to seek help > elsewhere, how to use mailing lists and which lists to use, general > chat, making mistakes, boasting, sharing ideas, stories, moral I'm fairly new to this list [1] (and not /quite/ so new to FreeBSD, although still a newbie 'administrator'), and I'm still not exactly sure what it's for. [1] In fact, I didn't know it existed until the other day, as it's not mentioned in the 2.2.5-era local webdocs that I installed on the CD I borrowed from a friend, perhaps an example of the 'change' in newbyness: old-skool newbies were probably learning how to administrate a permanently connected academic or research box, new-skool newbies are, I suspect, more likely to be getting going at home, and with most of the world unable to afford to dialup and slurp the latest sources, we might not always have the latest and greatest versions (or docs). It seems to me a little as if people can ask anything here, as long as they don't ask a `question'..? ;-) > (but not technical) support, and taking an active part in the FreeBSD > community. We take our problems and support questions to > freebsd-questions, I'm not sure why the decision has been made to direct *all* questions to FreeBSD-questions. There is an obvious difference between the level of questioning there which ranges from "Hey, how can I install this FreeBSD thing under WhineDOS 95" (which I reckon, probably should go here, for the questioner to be informed that 1: it's an OS in itself, and 2: yes, there's this great big website you can look at..), to 'newbie-ish' things like "How *do* I install xx? How do I set up yy..?" to questions from more seasoned users such as "How do I do this really spiffy multilink ppp thing?" or "How do I do this other very technical sounding thing that David Marsh hasn't even heard of yet..?" This list seems fairly quiet, almost empty compared to -questions, so I'm simply wondering why the 'simpler' questions couldn't be dealt with here, on -newbies, which would hopefully allow the real experts on -questions to get on with more important topics, than having to recite FAQ references over again.. :-( > One of the things we do together is learn more effective ways to > find help when we need it. Here are some suggestions: This sounds like a good idea, but a little hard to quite get to grips with.. Does this mean that questions along the lines of: Where is there a good tutorial on the more arcane features of 'vi' (and one that's more readable and has more examples than `man vi')? or Does anybody know where I can get StarOffice documentation? www.stardivision.com doesn't seem to have any. .would be acceptable topics for discussion here? [Incidentally, these are both real queries of mine ;-)] > You don't have to actually join freebsd-questions before asking a > question there. Replies to your question will normally be sent to Is this following example of 'meta-questioning' acceptable here? FreeBSD-questions is a very busy list, and so far, I'm duly subscribed to it, but it is very timeconsuming to wade through. From my previous internet experience, I know that it's generally considered rude to fire questions at a list you don't subscribe to. So I'm wondering if -questions really is different in this case? Do people not mind emailing answers directly to NON-subscribing questioners? On most other lists that would be considered rude. (It would make things a little easier for me not to have to read/junk every topic on the -questions list, but there's the old chestnut that the question might just have been answered previously. (How many times was "Hey? I get this lib.des.blah error in 2.2.6..?" asked recently.. :-( )) And, to continue, the wise ones duly respond to such questions as the above with "Check the website" or "Check the mailing list archive".. Now, as you point out elsewhere, a large number of newbies (myself included) access the internet intermittently over non-fixed dialup links, usually paying for the holidays of telco executives quite handsomely in the process.. [Note for USAns: that means we have to pay for the phone calls ;-(] While taking a brief check of the website for news or errata is probably OK, doing an online search of mail-archves soon mounts up the phone bill, which, IMO, means it would be better for people to be subscribed to a list and following the threads. Which comes back to my point that with -questions being very very busy, and -newbies being very very quiet, I'd just like to politely suggest that maybe we should be able to ask at least some of the more 'low level' questions here? But please let me know if this has been gone over before or if I'm treading on somebody's toes.. > If you know what documentation you need but can't locate it, send a > brief query to FreeBSD-questions. If you don't know what you need, > always have trouble finding it, or can't make any sense of it when > you do, ask some patient newbies to steer you in the right > direction. oops, I guess this maybe answers my questions above.. But I don't understand why "Where can I find documentation that I can read so that I can use xxxx?" should be a -questions question, although the more blunt "How do I use xxxx?" obviously would be..? Isn't part of the newbie experience all about "Help! There's these big horrible man pages: they don't make sense" or worse "Help! There *isn't* a man page for this program" or "I've really really tried to read the whole 300K man page, and it still doesn't make sense"? I would have thought that the usually fairly simple answers to these questions could be dealt with on -newbies. After all, the questions are about how to make sense of existing documentation or finding other sources, not committing the sin of asking the direct "How do I *do* this?" >Other resources > > A resource list is available at http://www.freebsd.org/newbies.html > to help new and inexperienced FreeBSD users to find relevant > information Oh, that's news to me, too. It looks like the website has maybe undergone quite a few changes since 2.2.5. Now, if only I could find out how to get webcopy to work so that I could download new sections and read them offline... If a lot of these developments (the newbies page and the newbies list itself) are only just starting to get off the ground, maybe it will take some time for this information to filter around so that the really clueless newbies (the "How much space on my C: drive will FreeBSD take?" ones) might start looking here for advice in the first place..? > quickly. It includes books, on line documents and tutorials, and >links > to web pages that other newbies have found useful for learning. If >you > have a suggestion for good material to be included, please write to > freebsd-newbies and tell us about it. Right, this sounds good, but it really is the first I've heard of it. > One thing we're going to see a fair bit is people posting >questions, > believing they're doing the right thing by posting here as newbies, > not realising how it works. If someone answers those questions the I think that having a single monolithic -questions group isn't the best way to deal with things, as it becomes too much for people to keep up with, not least the long-term answerers themselves, I'm sure. I'll maybe bring this up on -questions if people feel it has merit, but wouldn't it possibly be a good idea to split questions into (say) q-internet, q-apps, q-config, q-install, q-web, q-programming, etc, with each group focussing on a specific area of FreeBSD usage..? This would make it easier for users and experts to only keep track of lists that they're interested in specifically. > So all questions, requests for help, etc still go to >freebsd-questions > as usual. Ours is more of a discussion group, a place where newbies There doesn't seem to be much discussion going on, unfortunately. I do feel that the current list charter is slightly too restrictive, and also a bit abstract and vague such that it probably dissuades people from posting as it's not really clear what can be discussed here. What does anybody else think, and does anybody have any answers to any of my meta-questions (at least those that are deemed within the remit of the list ;-)? Dave. --- David Marsh,drmarsh@bigfoot.comPLEX | http://squelch.home.ml.org/ | Glasgow/Glaschu, Scotland. *If urgent, phone: +44 141 400-0577*| > CYCLEWAY: cycle activism GB/IE: http://squelch.home.ml.org/cycleway/ < > includes bikes on public transport, & cycle organisation directories < To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message
Want to link to this message? Use this URL: <https://mail-archive.FreeBSD.org/cgi/mid.cgi?XFMail.980723234704.drmarsh>