Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 19:21:58 +0100 (BST) From: David Marsh <drmarsh@bigfoot.com> To: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au> Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Newbies FAK Message-ID: <XFMail.980726205305.drmarsh@bigfoot.com> In-Reply-To: <19980724103351.13100@welearn.com.au>
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On 24-Jul-98 Sue Blake wrote: >On Thu, Jul 23, 1998 at 11:00:08PM +0100, David Marsh wrote: > >> I'm not sure why the decision has been made to direct *all* questions >> to FreeBSD-questions. > >Many many reasons. Let's not start another enormous thread on this! > I think I understand the workings of -questions, and the relationship between it and -newbies a little better now since the recent replies I've received, so I'm following-up to the other points that have come up here, and then I'll leave it at that. >One day there might be a special place to ask newbie technical >questions. If that happens, it will not be this mailing list, it will >be another one. I think that would be a good idea. Does anybody agree or have the inclination to set up such a list? >> This list seems fairly quiet, almost empty compared to -questions, so >> I'm simply wondering why the 'simpler' questions couldn't be dealt >> with here, on -newbies, which would hopefully allow the real experts on >> -questions to get on with more important topics, than having to recite >> FAQ references over again.. :-( > >If you don't like the way you are dealt with in freebsd-questions, then >we need to deal with that. You can discuss that here. I maybe worded that badly. I've got no problems with -questions, and I've been very grateful for the advice I've received there. It's just that it's a BIG list and I felt that some separation of more complex queries from newbie queries might have been useful. But now that I know that I don't _have_ to always stay subscribed to -questions.. >> Does this mean that questions along the lines of: >> >> Where is there a good tutorial on the more arcane features of 'vi' >> (and one that's more readable and has more examples than `man vi')? > >Yes! > >> Does anybody know where I can get StarOffice documentation? >> www.stardivision.com doesn't seem to have any. >> >> .would be acceptable topics for discussion here? > >Yes! > You'll notice that Nik Clayton didn't feel that these were necessarily quite appropriate topics. Obviously everybody has differing opinions, and I'm not in a position to say which is "right", but perhaps my little examples there maybe illustrate that it's a little hard to understand just quite what can be asked here? >> > You don't have to actually join freebsd-questions before asking a >> > question there. Replies to your question will normally be sent to >> >> Is this following example of 'meta-questioning' acceptable here? > >I'm not quite sure what you mean. I was sort of meaning: is it acceptable to ask 'questions about questions', ie, how would I find out how to do xxx? (like my two examples above), rather than: how do I DO xxx? which is obviously a -questions question. >> So I'm wondering if -questions really is different in this case? >> Do people not mind emailing answers directly to NON-subscribing >> questioners? On most other lists that would be considered rude. This was my 'meta-question': ie asking questions about how to use the lists. >On *all* freebsd lists it is considered rude (by many) to neglect to cc >both the list and the person you're responding to. > >I subscribe to 50-60 mailing lists from a variety of sources. Each has >their own little conventions, and in this particular respect the >freebsd lists are different to most, yes. As I've mentioned in a different follow-up, this particular aspect has caught me a little by surprise. In fact, most 'subscription' lists make it clear that cc:'s aren't a good idea, for obvious reasons. In the case of FreeBSD, obviously the opposite occurs where questioners aren't necessarily list subscribers, and therefore personal cc:'s become necessary. I'd like to suggest that maybe the list advice from majordomo should make this point clearer, which is different from most other lists. Certainly I will bear this in mind for the future. >> And, to continue, the wise ones duly respond to such questions as >> the above with "Check the website" or "Check the mailing list archive".. >> Now, as you point out elsewhere, a large number of newbies (myself >> included) access the internet intermittently over non-fixed dialup >> links, usually paying for the holidays of telco executives quite >> handsomely in the process.. >> [Note for USAns: that means we have to pay for the phone calls ;-(] > >I know. I'm in Australia :-) I know, I was kidding ;-) The USAmericans don't know how lucky they are, I'm jealous! :-( >What we have to realise though, is that freebsd-questions is inhabited >by hundreds of the kind of people who get three-digit sums per hour, >and they are happy to spend time to help us there for free, for as long >as they enjoy doing so. They have to pay to get our questions too. >This doesn't make it OK for you and me, of course, but it can help >a bit to see it from their point of view. I certainly don't intend to denigrate the advice from the, as you point out, well paid and doubtlessly busy, experts, and there are some 'questions' which obviously do 'merit' the "Check the website.." answer(!). It's just that for home-users, prolonged periods of searching can end up very expensive. Perhaps we need more pointers to easily downloadable information [1], to save online time. I'm certainly going to check the 'newbies' page on the website to see what it says! [1] And if/when I feel I'm experienced enough, I'd like to contribute to the 'official' documentation project at some stage. >> While taking a brief check of the website for news or errata is >> probably OK, doing an online search of mail-archves soon mounts up the >> phone bill, which, IMO, means it would be better for people to be >> subscribed to a list and following the threads. > >Whatever suits you best. You'll end up needing to search the >archives at sime time. If you don't want to do either, on the web site >you'll find a list of people who offer help for a fee, or you can work >everything out yourself from the man pages and source code :-) So it's either filter through a huge mail download or spend online time searching: You pays your money, you takes your choice ;-) I wish we had cheaper phone calls, and then this wouldn't be such a difficulty! >> Which comes back to my point that with -questions being very very busy, >> and -newbies being very very quiet, I'd just like to politely suggest >> that maybe we should be able to ask at least some of the more >> 'low level' questions here? > >Sorry, that will not be possible. > My misunderstanding of the 'nature' of -questions, sorry. Just as long as the wise ones on -questions don't mind a small flood of 'newbie' (but hopefully not 'clueless') questions from me. I had just thought that a degree of separation between beginner, and more technical questions, might have been beneficial. >However, as I have said before, if you do wish to see a *separate* list >for support/technical/how-to questions specifically for newbies, all >you need to do is figure out how to make it work. That's the hard part. The word *separate* is duly noted! :-) >Who would be experienced enough to provide reliable answers, who would >check that their answers were correct, who would take their place if >they moved their free help out of -questions, and, the tricky one, why >on earth would they want to be bothered, what enticements do you have >to offer volunteers? If this does ever happen, it will need to be >very thoroughly planned beforehand. I understand what you mean, and at the end of the day, any such move would rely on the goodwill of the experts. But to give an example, I'd hope that in, say, 6 months, I'd have progressed enough to perhaps help out some of the then newbies, while most of the harder questions currently on -questions would still be about things I have no experience of. I think it might help the more knowledgeable users to focus on answering questions more related to their particular experience or level of knowledge, in separate lists. But I suppose I don't know whether the real experts prefer the challenge of tricky questions or the satisfaction of helping a newbie do something relatively simple, or perhaps a combination of both! >> But please let me know if this has been gone over before or if I'm >> treading on somebody's toes.. > >No toes, just... yaaaawwwwn... :-) Sorry! >> But I don't understand why "Where can I find documentation that I can >> read so that I can use xxxx?" should be a -questions question, although >> the more blunt "How do I use xxxx?" obviously would be..? > >One of the (many) purposes of this list is to provide help for people >with using the mailing lists. Email-related questions, and questions >about the best way to ask questions, are asked and answered here. >FreeBSD-newbies keeps those sorts of things out of -questions, where >it's OK to be ignorant. People here will gently help you get your email >in shape so that the people in -questions won't rag you about it :-) >And if there's documentation, most of us would much rather use that >than go ask a question. By pointing each other to documentation we save >each other discomfort and help each other to be not so dependent on >-questions. Just as long as it is appropriate to ask questions about how to get documentation here [1], I wasn't sure if it was? [1] Because that is half the battle! Once you have the *right* documentation, solving a particular problem isn't quite as bad! >> Isn't part of the newbie experience all about "Help! There's these big >> horrible man pages: they don't make sense" or worse "Help! There >> *isn't* a man page for this program" or "I've really really tried to >> read the whole 300K man page, and it still doesn't make sense"? > >In that case, if you're trying to set something up or solve a problem >it goes to -questions. But if it's a direct comment on documentation >that would help those writing the docs, it goes to freebsd-doc. Sure. My above example was (perhaps badly written) about how to _get_ documentation that helps out, so as to avoid having to ask a question. I am sure that there are probably many other tutorials on the net in addition to the FAQ/handbook: I just don't know where to look. >> Now, if only I could find out how to get webcopy to work so that I >> could download new sections and read them offline... > >OK, someone here might suggest what you could use to do this, point you >to it and its documentation, and if you got stuck you could write to >-questions. But you'd probably get better advice on what to use if you >asked -questions in the first place. Yes, I figured that would be a -questions question :-) >> If a lot of these developments (the newbies page and the newbies list >> itself) are only just starting to get off the ground, maybe it will >> take some time for this information to filter around so that the really >> clueless newbies (the "How much space on my C: drive will FreeBSD >> take?" ones) might start looking here for advice in the first place..? > >No, if they start looking here for technical advice, or offering it >here, they'll be gently advised that they are acting against the >published list charter. That kind of question can be and therefore is >answered in freebsd-questions. My mistake in misinterpreting the lists, again. But I'll bet that the experts on -questions must get *sick* of answering that kind of question above! :-( Although the newbies webpage could well be a useful 'self-service' form of support in itself, if it has pointers to useful sources of info. >> I think that having a single monolithic -questions group isn't the best >> way to deal with things, as it becomes too much for people to keep up >> with, not least the long-term answerers themselves, I'm sure. > >OK, that's a separate issue. It's a gripe. It's a gripe likely to be a >particularly nasty gripe for newbies. We can let off steam a bit here >because it's chatty, so long as we don't fire steam at each other. 'Gripe' is maybe a little harsh: it's certainly a 'niggle' from my perspective, and I was hoping to propose a possible idea, perhaps worthy of interest, rather than come over as a 'do it my way' bossyboots.. But again, I know now that it's acceptable that I don't have to keep up with -questions constantly in order to make use of it. >> There doesn't seem to be much discussion going on, unfortunately. > >No, we haven't heard much from you at all yet :-) >Tell us what you're up to with FreeBSD. Umm, I fear you might have heard too much from me, now. Sorry! As for me and FreeBSD, well.. I cheated and got a friend to do most of the installation grot, leaving me with a functional basic system, and X. I've installed a few ports (mostly successfully, not always, unfortunately), set up a ppp connection using user-ppp (that was a bit of a struggle, but I did feel chuffed after eventually succeeding), tried (and failed) to get sendmail to generate valid mail headers (didn't have the time to keep hacking and switched to xfmail as a temporary alternative: but will have to sort it eventually), installed leafnode and trn to restore my news access (but something keeps stuffing *every* newsgroup into my 'interesting' list once a week :-( ), and figured that my system is just about workable enough now that I can actually do things with it :-) Oh, and I got my printer working as well, which I was also quite chuffed with. The Handbook section was fairly easy to follow, although I was lucky in having an HP printer a la the examples ;-) I'm hoping to use FreeBSD for the usual user-y kind of stuff: word processing (hence the need for StarOffice documentation), DtP (I'm perhaps hoping there), the usual internet access, and also for website authoring and graphics work. I keep meaning to save up for my own domain and put my (at present, basic) Java and Perl skills into use. >> I do feel that the current list charter is slightly too restrictive, >> and also a bit abstract and vague such that it probably dissuades >> people from posting as it's not really clear what can be discussed here. > >If you believe, as some do, that newbies are defined by their >help-seeking behaviour, then you will be totally dissatisfied with this >list. If you believe that newbies can and do do a lot more than seek >help, even contribute to the FreeBSD Project in many ways, then you >might find this a nice little low volume low signal high noise list >that's kinda nice to hang around :-) As somebody else posted, you don't have to be a coder to help out. I'd like to help out with documentation or HowTo's, but I feel I have a bit to learn yet! Dave. --- David Marsh,drmarsh@bigfoot.comPLEX | http://squelch.home.ml.org/ | Glasgow/Glaschu, Scotland. *If urgent, phone: +44 141 400-0577*| > CYCLEWAY: cycle activism GB/IE: http://squelch.home.ml.org/cycleway/ < > includes bikes on public transport, & cycle organisation directories < To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message
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