Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 19:15:05 -0600 From: Chad Perrin <perrin@apotheon.com> To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: perl qstn... Message-ID: <20100408011505.GA30243@guilt.hydra> In-Reply-To: <20100407130954.4fd56215@gumby.homeunix.com> References: <j2ya14066a01004040945z39191770k2f025752317fb14a@mail.gmail.com> <20100404163353.GA15198@guilt.hydra> <20100404201442.b456044e.freebsd@edvax.de> <o2oa14066a01004041148zd4ef8167q32b04d58daec8f9f@mail.gmail.com> <4BB9A5ED.3040309@infracaninophile.co.uk> <20100405173632.739a0c42@gumby.homeunix.com> <20100406015544.GA21119@guilt.hydra> <20100406132049.641b9edf@gumby.homeunix.com> <20100407030717.GA26298@guilt.hydra> <20100407130954.4fd56215@gumby.homeunix.com>
next in thread | previous in thread | raw e-mail | index | archive | help
--ibTvN161/egqYuK8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Apr 07, 2010 at 01:09:54PM +0100, RW wrote: > On Tue, 6 Apr 2010 21:07:17 -0600 > Chad Perrin <perrin@apotheon.com> wrote: >=20 > > On Tue, Apr 06, 2010 at 01:20:49PM +0100, RW wrote: > > > On Mon, 5 Apr 2010 19:55:44 -0600 > > > Chad Perrin <perrin@apotheon.com> wrote: > > >=20 > > > > On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 05:36:32PM +0100, RW wrote: >=20 > > > > There are more things in heav'n and earth, Horatio, than are > > > > dreamt of by designers of eagerly evaluated prefix notation > > > > languages. > > >=20 > > > And most of them are obscure for good reasons. Just because a a > > > syntax fits into a classification scheme doesn't make it a good > > > idea. >=20 > > Shall we trade more trite sniping, or would you like to say something > > more substantive?=20 >=20 > You started it. 1. No, I used a misquote to lead into a lengthy explanation. 2. Seriously? Are you not aware of how juvenile that sounds? > > >=20 > > > Natural languages are mostly driven by spoken usage, in which people > > > firm-up half-formed ideas as they speak - this is not a good model > > > for programming languages. If you are hacking out a quick and dirty > > > script it may be convenient to type the decision after the action, > > > but it don't I think it promotes good quality software. > >=20 > > This sounds exactly like the complaints Pythonistas use to explain why > > they have a deep hatred of Perl. If that's how you feel, I'd prefer > > you stop trying to tell me how Perl should work, and just use > > something else. >=20 > I'm not, I'm expressing an opinion that this is not a feature worth > copying. Judging by your further disputations with Mr. Schwartz, I don't think I believe you. >=20 > > > Imperative languages have a natural order of decision followed by > > > action, and code is most easily readable if the syntax doesn't try > > > to subvert that. =20 > >=20 > > . . . except when the "natural order of decision" varies > > significantly, such as when comparing functions with operators. It > > gets even more confusing when both "functions" and "operators" are > > actually methods in object oriented languages with an imperative > > design, because suddenly the difference between a "function" and an > > "operator" becomes purely arbitrary. There's nothing about > > arbitrariness that suggests a "natural order". >=20 > Expression are different. When you are trying to understand thousands > of lines of code, the order of execution within an expression is fine > detail, but the flow of execution is something that needs to be > taken-in easily.=20 This doesn't change anything I said. >=20 > > It's kind of odd you rail against natural language then talk about >=20 > I'm not railing again natural languages, I just don't think they have > much relevance. It's kind of odd you rail against natural language *in this context*. I thought "in this context" was obvious. >=20 > > imperative languages having a "natural order" -- which is, presumably, > > based on the expectations of people who have been conditioned to think > > that way by their use of natural language. >=20 > No, it's conditioned by causality, and other mainstream programming > languages. > =20 > People juggle a lot of languages, being different for the sake of it > isn't very helpful. Who said anything about being different for the sake of being different? If you find it too difficult to actually respond to what I said, please refrain from responding. >=20 > > Frankly, if everybody just stuck to a purely "natural order of > > decision" approach to imperative language design, we would never even > > have developed structured programming. >=20 > I have no idea what you trying to say here. I presume it must be some > kind of straw man argument. It's not a straw man argument. Your presumption is wrong. I have no idea how what I said could not be perfectly obvious. It's pretty clear. --=20 Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] --ibTvN161/egqYuK8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAku9LhkACgkQ9mn/Pj01uKVnLgCg2azUNr5AxsDLnCm4KjfNdvww FycAnRUaPpt2Coewd48Em7C73ETE7oMr =hcOS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ibTvN161/egqYuK8--
Want to link to this message? Use this URL: <https://mail-archive.FreeBSD.org/cgi/mid.cgi?20100408011505.GA30243>