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Date:      Thu, 20 May 1999 01:14:51 -0400 (EDT)
From:      Chuck Robey <chuckr@picnic.mat.net>
To:        Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>
Cc:        "Louis A. Mamakos" <louie@TransSys.COM>, Andy Doran <ad@fionn.sports.gov.uk>, "G. Adam Stanislav" <adam@whizkidtech.net>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: c9x (new ANSI C)
Message-ID:  <Pine.BSF.4.10.9905200100580.69006-100000@picnic.mat.net>
In-Reply-To: <37438B0C.C97BE4CE@softweyr.com>

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On Wed, 19 May 1999, Wes Peters wrote:

> > Truly and example of the "less is more" concept in action.  I've done
> > some non-trivial development in Objective-C, and I can assure you that
> > I haven't missed C++'s operator overloading.
> 
> I on the other hand have written working embedded systems in C++ and
> find it well suited for ANY programming purpose, as long as you under-
> stand what is really happening inside the language and use the features
> that are appropriate for your application.
> 
> Programmers who like language X because they don't have to know what's
> going on under the hood worry me, because that means they're trusting
> the operation of their software to programmers they literally know
> nothing about -- the compiler writers.  And I've been at this FAR too
> long to implicitly trust the compiler writers, no matter HOW good they
> are.
> 
> Poor craftsmen blame their tools, skilled craftsmen make the tools at
> hand produce works of art.

It's a *little* different, Wes.  Let me put this proposition: not all
tools are good for all folks.  My comments about C++ applied strictly to
me ... I said *I* didn't like it, and that I'd gone to the trouble of
learning it so that I could feel honest about saying my opinion.  
That's not to say it's a "bad" tool; it's bad for me, and even for me, I
can find one application where even I have to admit it works (graphics,
GUI programming).  For the rest, I was holding forth my opinions, and I
hope I didn't voice absolutes.  I think it's an extremely
overcomplicated disaster for me, but it may be just the ticket for some
folks, most especially those with great self restraint, those who
restrict themselves to a limited subset of the language.

Unlike most who don't like C++, I wouldn't take OO out of it, but I
would ax templates and operator overloading.  I'd add the inheritance
ideas from Java, but remove multiple inheritance.

I think the comment "less is more" is right on target; increasing
complexity for the sake of complexity, which is what most C++ programs
do, repels me.  Folks use inheritance 'cause it's neat.  They go
looking for all the strangest implementation methods merely to use 
the features.  Bleah.

I keep hearing the comment that OO lets you visualize programming more
"naturally".  Please find me a single 4 year old that forms ideas on how
to get things done (like dress himself) using an object oriented
approach.  OO is learned, it's NOT "natural".  I like it if it's under
heavy restraints, only.

----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
Chuck Robey                 | Interests include any kind of voice or data 
chuckr@picnic.mat.net       | communications topic, C programming, and Unix.
213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1  |
Greenbelt, MD 20770         | I run picnic (FreeBSD-current)
(301) 220-2114              | and jaunt (Solaris7).
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------






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