Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:21:16 -0700 From: Vizion <vizion@vizion.occoxmail.com> To: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Cc: Mark Linimon <linimon@lonesome.com>, freebsd-eclipse@freebsd.org, freebsd-java@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [SUGGEST] Reform eclipse and eclipse related ports Message-ID: <200510181021.19354.vizion@vizion.occoxmail.com> In-Reply-To: <20051018164636.GC14192@soaustin.net> References: <200510150015.j9F0ExKr085847@sakura.ninth-nine.com> <200510180908.26798.vizion@vizion.occoxmail.com> <20051018164636.GC14192@soaustin.net>
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On Tuesday 18 October 2005 09:46, the author Mark Linimon contributed to the
dialogue on-
Re: [SUGGEST] Reform eclipse and eclipse related ports:
>On Tue, Oct 18, 2005 at 09:08:22AM -0700, Vizion wrote:
>> was horrified that we were unable to counter the rise of MS because
>> the **ix community was unable to wrest control of its development
>> cycle from engineers and determine its future policy by reference
>> to user requirements.
>
>If you haven't noticed, almost everyone who provides FreeBSD to you
>is a _volunteer_. Most of them are engineers or developers or system
>administrators or the like. They work on FreeBSD mostly because they
>consider it A Neat Thing; there's no money, and not much glory, in it
>otherwise.
I know that -- from my own experience and contributions to the freebsd ports
system. My view is that the validity of a particular point of view does not
depend upon how much or how little someone has contributed to the community.
Therefore I do not believe my contributions are relevant nor are arguemnts
mande any better or any worse by the quality od contributions in other areas.
I happen to believe that we are both, in this dialogue, making a contribution
to FreeBSD.
>
>If you, personally, want to set up an entity that develops a FreeBSD-
>based product with a feature set defined on a completely user-driven
>basis (e.g. something like a "Linux distro"), feel free to do so. IMHO
>you would be meeting a lot of people's needs. I would even hope that you
>could make a solid commercial entity out of it. If it had a good enough
>business model, I would probably even send you a resume.
This sounds to me like the argument about if you have an argument with this
governemnt you should go amnd live elsewhere.. sorry I do not buy that
argument. I have been a freebsd user and contributor since its early days and
am not in a hurry to go elsewhere.
>
>But in the meantime, while we try to _listen_ to what the users want, in
>the end of the day what gets _built_ is what any individual contributor
>wants to build -- for whatever their own motivations are.
Agreed.. and this is where the dilemna comes in. The issue is do we build for
users or for ourselves. To my mind there is an intelligent middle road.
Something for ourselves and something for the wider commuity. That means
having an eye on the needs of the users of tomorrow.
This debate is to my mind a healthy oner fopr the FreeBSD community I will not
make any apology for pursuing it-- because I believe it FreeBSD needs to
concentrate on becoming more user focus and less technologically focussed.
I aso make no apology for getting mad-- I do regard rule based responses such
as -- we cant make an exception-- as narrow minded BS.. BUt hey that is not a
good idea because {good reason focused on meeting user need} get my full
attention!
>
>Simply repeating over and over again that the developers are to some
>extent "bad guys" for not immediately changing the way that the code is
>set up to suit you personally is not going to provide any extra positive
>motivation to these individuals.
Do not put me there -- I am a developer myself.. My comments are directed not
at developers as a class - but at a mindset of certain developers who, with
the best of intentions, see technology as a self sufficient discipline
rather than seeing technology as a tool to serve the rest of the community.
The former tends to look to the existing system to decide what is best to do
next - the latter look to the needs of the external world.
>
>But I suspect this point is going to be lost on you, because you seem
>to want it free, and your way, and right now.
Please do not put words in my mouth -- I want decisions based upon the merit
of the argument not on the inertia of precedent. So if I need to argue
against the inertia will make no apology for doing so.
>To the extent that that's
>true, I predict that you are going to continue to be very frustrated and
>unhappy with FreeBSD -- or, for that matter, any other community-based
>effort.
Who says I am unhappy with freebsd. after all I use it extensively and am
installing it on another twelve machines during the next year. I find the
community mutually helpful and enjoy it. I do get frustrated at times -- but
frustration is good - you need to realise that my energy comes from a
realization that we need to make good things even better - and not get hung
up on yesterdays ways of doing things
>
>Let me know if you get that funding together, I honestly think it would
>be an interesting project.
Thanks
--
40 yrs navigating and computing in blue waters.
English Owner & Captain of British Registered 60' bluewater Ketch S/V Taurus.
Currently in San Diego, CA. Sailing bound for Europe via Panama Canal after
completing engineroom refit.
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