Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 23:37:35 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai <asmodai@wxs.nl> To: "Christopher G. Petrilli" <petrilli@amber.org> Cc: FreeBSD Small <freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG> Subject: Re: Command-line i/f Message-ID: <Version.32.19981006232725.01028710@pop.wxs.nl> In-Reply-To: <19981005141735.53074@amber.org> References: <199810051532.LAA10779@jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com> <199810032345.TAA21910@whizzo.transsys.com> <199810051532.LAA10779@jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com>
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At 20:17 05-10-98 , Christopher G. Petrilli wrote:
>On Mon, Oct 05, 1998 at 11:32:42AM -0400, Jerry Hicks wrote:
>>
>> [snip: various arguments]
>>
>> Not necessarily... Quite a few mortals know how to code Forth. I have
>> enjoyed a fair amount of success over the years introducing Forth to new
>> programmers.
>
>This is really not a valid argument. Quite a few mortals know x86
>assembler, but that hardly makes it attractive <wink> I think the
>reality is that RPN is totally foreign to most people, at least those
>who don't keep a traditional HP calculator by their sides.
Heh, depends on what it will be used for... It is small though ;)
>> Anyone who used WordPerfect or bootstraps a late model Sun also
qualifies as a
>> user of a Forth system.
>
>Regardless, user is one thing, coder is a totally seperate thing.
Very true, hence the fact that most *NIX users still have some
affection/background with programming-related issues... And then there is
the Linux 'l33t groups ;)
>> > Why wouldn't something based on TCL be a better choice? Sysadmins are
>> > probably more likely to be familiar with it (perhaps due to experience
>> > with "expect"). It has a pretty reasonable syntax, and perhaps
>> > a more familair procedural type model.
>>
>> I can see getting a complete Forth onto the PicoBSD floppy within 8K or so.
>
>This is a bonus in so much as it presumes that it's needed.
Aye, we have to keep thinking small, yet useable...
>> We can't do that with TCL.
Dunno... Might all be dependant on the amount of supportcode that makes it
into the 'kernel' as well as the understanding of the language by it's
coder/user.
>> I'll bet we will find a new set of FreeBSD aficionados created when some
>> implementation gets released. See comp.lang.forth for lively discussion.
>
>This is NOT why you do things, this is a poor excuse. Heck, then we
>should use perl! <0.5 wink>
Perl sounds good too ;)
Well, the fact that attracted me to picoBSD a few days/weeks ago was the
fact that it was going to do the things Cisco/Shiva and other box-routers
can do except then for embedded systems or small memory footprint setups...
My choice of support was the latter. Not to say I don't see any future in
the first, it's just something I cannot discuss about as my knowledge is
zero in that area, hence why all my posts take a small setup based on
diskettes as startpoint. Narrowminded? Mayhaps =)
>> Forth is very much alive and kicking. When one is seeking a minimalist
>> solution, I can't think of a better alternative to assembly code.
>
>Have we really even yet determined that any such solution is needed, or
>in fact are we trying to find a hammer to a nail that is only in the
>imagination of those among us? I would appreciate CLEAR CONCISE
>descriptions of REAL-WORLD problems that this would solve, not some
>hyperbole about how it would make thus and such possi ble, which
>presumes that anyone in their right midn would WANT it.
True, it might be trying to find a nail. The fact is that we have to
provide an UI. That's something we all agree upon, as we all see the need
to change the default /bin/sh to something less versatile, yet more useful
for our goal.
See also another post of mine: picoBSD Goals
>Remember, PicoBSD is designed to be small and simple, choosing obtuse
>(for most people) languages as extension sets is just plain SILLY.
Might have a valid point there, but ye forgot one point, the UI will be
written in Forth if I understood Andrej correctly. It won't be usable by
the admin/user...
Regards,
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / Asmodai <asmodai(at)wxs.nl>
ICQ-UIN: 1564317 .:. Ninth Circle Enterprises
Network/Security Specialist
/==|| FreeBSD and picoBSD, the Power to Serve ||==\
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