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Date:      Thu, 23 Nov 2000 19:53:26 -0500
From:      Michael Graziano <mikeg@hoflink.com>
To:        stable@FreeBSD.org
Subject:   Re: Dedicated disks (was: Dangerously Dedicated)
Message-ID:  <3A1DBC06.E2DA8053@hoflink.com>
References:  <200011231744.JAA02382@spammie.svbug.com>

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Regarding some of the points raised at
http://www.svbug.com/projects/platform_issues/ddvsbios/index.html,

>You can not easily add another OS to an existing system,
>without a full backup and restore
and
>Commerical boot managers have problems with it; this is
>an issue when you have FreeBSD on one "Dangerously
>Dedicated" disk, and anohter OS on a second disk

Since this is a dedicated install, you shouldn't be trying to add other
operating systems to the machine.
That defeats the whole purpose of creating a dedicated FreeBSD system.  The way
I aways interpreted
"Dangerously Dedicated" disks is that the only OS on the MACHINE should be
FreeBSD - Nothing else
should ever run on that box.  That is how I have always treated the Dangerously
Dedicated option.
(before I get flamed yes I DO understand that you can have a DD Disk in a
machine as the second, third
or whatever drive and not boot off of it, but I feel that DD disks are really
only for people who will be
using FreeBSD as their ONLY OS on a given machine)


>An increasing number of BIOS will divide by 0 when they
>are attempting to implement LBA addressing.  These

I remember reading somewhere that you should turn off LBA mode when installing
FreeBSD anyway
(that information may be dated now, and for all I know may not have been
accurate when I read it (back
in the 2.2.x days)).  I have always set my FreeBSD systems to use normal mode
for accessing the hard
drive, and have always used DD disks without a problem.  Machines from Compaq,
SAG Electronics,
IBM desktops and Laptops as well as a variety of systems I built myself (my
home-built systems all use
Award or AMI BIOSen, that leaves Phoenix untested and I would like to hear from
someone who has
experience with them) all have no problems with DD disks.  This covers a
significant part of the PC
BIOS market share.


>The FreeBSD fake DOS partition table does not pass a
>number BIOS-based self-consistency checks (it needs to
>be fixed), and so systems which use these checks in the
>BIOS to protect against boot sector virus infestation _can
>not boot_.

By all means PLEASE fix it or suggest how it can be fixed.  I would be all for
making it work, but
I've also been burned with other operating systems and "Boot Sector Virus
Protection" in BIOS (it
whines about DOS installs, Linux (RedHat), NetBSD, OpenBSD, and even Win95 and
98.  I have
found it to be more of a hinderance than a help and have turned it off on every
system I use.  On a
FreeBSD system I think it would be BETTER to leave it turned off.  IMHO it is a
stupid feature
which is useful for Win/DOS users who love to boot from floppies that their
friends gave them or
run strange programs off the 'net, but on a UNIX box I doubt people will be
booting from untrusted
floppies and unless you run something funky as root you can't do much damage to
the system from
inside the OS.  At most I would think this warrants a FAQ or Handbook entry
advising people to
turn off the feature (if one isn't already there).


Even if there aren't many real benefits to DD Disks, I think their creation
should still be allowed
and supported.  Perhaps a more explicit warning in sysinstall (something to the
effect of "If you
are using a laptop and do a suspend to disk this will hose your system" coupled
with "This violates
the PC-standards and may cause serious problems") is in order.  The current
warning is somewhat
wussy (to say the least).  Honestly though, I see no harm in leaving this
option in and I am seriously
in favor of it remaining.  It follows the same logic as the IDE_DELAY option
for a kernel, if people
are playing with it they should know what they are doing, and if not the
warning should be enough to
keep them from losing a finger to the firecrackers.


/~mikeg
Questions, comments, problems, flames, praise, small bundles of money to
mikeg@hoflink.com
SPAM, dead cows, fish-in-newspaper, death threats, etc. to
billgates@microsoft.com



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