Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 16:14:07 +1030 From: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com> To: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au> Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: newbies mailing list Message-ID: <19980301161407.25838@freebie.lemis.com> In-Reply-To: <19980301162232.44505@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 04:22:32PM %2B1100 References: <19980301105650.47895@welearn.com.au> <19980301133234.11473@freebie.lemis.com> <19980301162232.44505@welearn.com.au>
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On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 16:22:32 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > On Sun, Mar 01, 1998 at 01:32:34PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Sun, 1 March 1998 at 10:56:51 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > >> I think that I could summarize the arguments against with "the blind >> leading the blind". > > Of course it would. I don't see that as a problem, so long as nobody > expected it to be anything else. Well, I suppose that's a viewpoint. What advantage do you see in the blind leading the blind? What advantage do you you think others will see in the blind leading the blind? >> At least in -questions you have a couple of one-eyed men. You also have a >> number of people who can scare newbies off, sure, but that will happen >> even if there's a newbies list. > > There are some people who on some occasions treat newbies badly. Sometimes > it's by accident, sometimes of necessity. I'm not just talking about nasty > comments. Far more common are answers which sound like a line out of the man > page, or assume obvious things like that the person will know to restart the > damn thing (and how to) after changing its configuration :-) That's a problem, all right. When I'm answering a question, I often ask myself just what background the person has, especially if, as so often, the message is less than informative about this background. I generally give the person the "benefit of the doubt": I assume he knows what he's talking about, and he just has this little problem. If, on the other hand, they say "I'm a complete newbie, and I don't know what the (**&* this is all about", I try to be more helpful. I could do this the other way around, of course. One way or another, I'm liable to annoy somebody. And quite honestly, I'd rather annoy a newbie who can't even read the regular postings I send every week than a budding hacker who is liable to stay with the FreeBSD movement. You could, of course, cater for these people in the newbies list, like the guy who recently wrote "Somebody told me not to run fsck on a live file system, so I did it and my system crashed. What did I do wrong?". If you do that [cater for these people], you get what you deserve. > There's no workable solution. If every answer spelled everything > out, the list would become huge and boring, many who want the > one-liners would be insulted by the level of answer, and people > would start complaining about seeing extended discussion of the same > simple problem. Precisely. > But most of the time the newbies treat themselves badly in that > environment; their behaviour is inappropriate to such a list. They > do not know, or are two stressed out to care, how to present a well > formed question while adhering to the conventions of using a mailing > list. One thing I'd like to see is a list where behaviour doesn't > have to matter so much and can be addressed *after* the more > pressing problems. Hmm. You *are* a philanthopist at heart. > Another aspect of inappropriate newbie behaviour is their > preparedness to blame themselves whether or not that is warranted, Occasionally. Usually those people aren't the rank newbies, rather people who could benefit from -questions. > and then toggle into defensive mode when made to feel small. Yes, Real Hackers never get defensive. > Outcomes include people living with problems rather than asking for > help, giving up FreeBSD because they think it's too hard, and > sticking with FreeBSD when it's clearly too hard for them. Right. Of course, giving up FreeBSD because they think it's too hard might be the right choice. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean people aren't out to get you. >> At the moment, I have concerns about the overlap between -questions >> and -hackers (see http://www.lemis.com/questions.html). A newbies >> list would just compound the problem. > > I newbies list would have nothing to do with the confusion between > -questions and -hackers. In fact a newbies list might have little in common > with, and little impact on -questions. I'm thinking of something for the > people who don't participate in -questions, and those who you wish wouldn't. OK. How about this: you create and moderate a newbies list trying to get the questions into shape for -questions, and then forward them there. It's worth a try. Tell people that they can post to either list, but they'll get more sympathetic treatment from auntie than they will on -questions. See who leaps in to help them apart from yourself. We could always let it die again, and I suspect we will (with your full approval and a sigh of relief :-), but I could be wrong. What do you others think? Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message
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