Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2024 20:35:15 +0200 From: Daniel Engberg <daniel.engberg.lists@pyret.net> To: void <void@f-m.fm> Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, Cy Schubert <cy@FreeBSD.org> Subject: Re: Binary updates (was Re: It's not Rust, it's FreeBSD (and LLVM)) Message-ID: <bb89061bc332bd6e324a80e7464cf5cc@mail.infomaniak.com> In-Reply-To: <15a38054-3a14-4eb4-a803-9ce12e413194@app.fastmail.com> References: <202409031532.483FW0If007252@critter.freebsd.dk> <3845d980-7160-4819-82a4-db2281828c8c@app.fastmail.com> <202409090442.4894gGMb086473@donotpassgo.dyslexicfish.net> <20240909143239.8F285AF@slippy.cwsent.com> <15a38054-3a14-4eb4-a803-9ce12e413194@app.fastmail.com>
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[-- Attachment #1 --] On 2024-09-09T19:38:56.000+02:00, void <void@f-m.fm> wrote: > On Mon, 9 Sep 2024, at 15:32, Cy Schubert wrote: >> Those of us who build from source and build ports, whether >> manually or >> >> through our own poudriere, are the minority. Just visit the >> FreeBSD forums. > > IIRC, the forums don't entertain issues raised by src builders, > > only -releng. This is from a while ago though, I might be wrong > about that now, > > am happy to be corrected. > >> I attend OpenHack here. People who do use FreeBSD use >> freebsd-update and >> >> binary packages. (I use freebsd-update and binary packages on >> some VMs at >> >> $JOB, while maintaining my own network at home as any developer >> does.) > > I use freebsd-update on some VMs too. It has its place. But always > poudriere > > for ports, as most of the VMs are internet facing, and when a vuln > happens > > and is patched it's the fastest way to fix the situation, rather > than waiting > > on the pkg builders. > >> And that's a marketing feature of FreeBSD. Most users don't want >> he hassle >> >> of building and installing an O/S. > > Have most users been asked? > >> Out in the real world people use binary updates and binary >> packages. We >> >> developers are an anomaly these days. > > I'd not consider myself a dev. That might be just me though. Is > streamlining a > > kernel to have what you want and no more a 'dev' activity? Manually > patching? > >> Just because a few of us build from source doesn't mean the rest >> of the >> >> world does. > > How would you know? Who has counted the numbers? I think maybe a > poll on the > > main site might be enlightening. I mean, I agree src builders are > probably in > > a minority now, as freebsd-update is convenient in standard cases, > > but it's possibly a larger number than you think, who build from > src. > > We'll never really know without counting. > > I really hope that when pkgsrc becomes dominant, that we're still > able to > > grab src in git and checkout whats required, and build from that. > > It's so very versatile. > > -- I would imagine that for larger installs it's something inbetween where you build your own "set" of packages and base with custom settings etc and then push the binaries. I would also like to remind people that at least for ports far from all ports have runtime detection of SIMD instructions which can cause quite a bit of a difference in performance so setting CPUTYPE might drastically improve performance. Canonical (Ubuntu) are looking into providing different sets of packages depending on baseline so it's a thing. https://www.phoronix.com/news/Ubuntu-x86-64-v3-Images-Azure I also build from source btw =) Best regards, Daniel [-- Attachment #2 --] <html><body><div style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px">On 2024-09-09T19:38:56.000+02:00, void <void@f-m.fm> wrote:<br></div><div ><div><br></div></div><div style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px"><br></div><div class="ik_mail_quote answerContentMessage"><blockquote class="ws-ng-quote"><pre style="white-space: normal;"><div>On Mon, 9 Sep 2024, at 15:32, Cy Schubert wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="ws-ng-quote"><div> Those of us who build from source and build ports, whether manually or <br></div><div> through our own poudriere, are the minority. Just visit the FreeBSD forums. <br></div></blockquote><div> <br></div><div>IIRC, the forums don't entertain issues raised by src builders, <br></div><div>only -releng. This is from a while ago though, I might be wrong about that now,<br></div><div>am happy to be corrected.<br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="ws-ng-quote"><div> I attend OpenHack here. People who do use FreeBSD use freebsd-update and <br></div><div> binary packages. (I use freebsd-update and binary packages on some VMs at <br></div><div> $JOB, while maintaining my own network at home as any developer does.)<br></div></blockquote><div> <br></div><div>I use freebsd-update on some VMs too. It has its place. But always poudriere<br></div><div>for ports, as most of the VMs are internet facing, and when a vuln happens<br></div><div>and is patched it's the fastest way to fix the situation, rather than waiting<br></div><div>on the pkg builders.<br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="ws-ng-quote"><div> And that's a marketing feature of FreeBSD. Most users don't want he hassle <br></div><div> of building and installing an O/S.<br></div></blockquote><div> <br></div><div>Have most users been asked?<br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="ws-ng-quote"><div> Out in the real world people use binary updates and binary packages. We <br></div><div> developers are an anomaly these days.<br></div></blockquote><div> <br></div><div>I'd not consider myself a dev. That might be just me though. Is streamlining a<br></div><div>kernel to have what you want and no more a 'dev' activity? Manually patching?<br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class="ws-ng-quote"><div> Just because a few of us build from source doesn't mean the rest of the <br></div><div> world does.<br></div></blockquote><div> <br></div><div>How would you know? Who has counted the numbers? I think maybe a poll on the<br></div><div>main site might be enlightening. I mean, I agree src builders are probably in <br></div><div>a minority now, as freebsd-update is convenient in standard cases,<br></div><div>but it's possibly a larger number than you think, who build from src.<br></div><div><br></div><div>We'll never really know without counting.<br></div><div><br></div><div>I really hope that when pkgsrc becomes dominant, that we're still able to <br></div><div>grab src in git and checkout whats required, and build from that.<br></div><div>It's so very versatile.<br></div><div>--<br></div></pre></blockquote></div><div style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px">I would imagine that for larger installs it's something inbetween where you build your own "set" of packages and base with custom settings etc and then push the binaries.<br></div><div style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px">I would also like to remind people that at least for ports far from all ports have runtime detection of SIMD instructions which can cause quite a bit of a difference in performance so setting CPUTYPE might drastically improve performance. Canonical (Ubuntu) are looking into providing different sets of packages depending on baseline so it's a thing. <a href="https://www.phoronix.com/news/Ubuntu-x86-64-v3-Images-Azure" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" data-ik="ik-secure">https://www.phoronix.com/news/Ubuntu-x86-64-v3-Images-Azure</a><br></div><div style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px"><br></div><div style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px">I also build from source btw =)<br></div><div style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px"><br></div><div style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px">Best regards,<br></div><div style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px">Daniel<br></div></body></html>
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