Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 16:23:33 -0800 From: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@komquats.com> To: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> Cc: Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@komquats.com>, "Rodney W. Grimes" <freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net>, Hans Petter Selasky <hps@selasky.org>, Eitan Adler <lists@eitanadler.com>, "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" <arch@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Deprecating / Removing floppy drive support Message-ID: <201712040023.vB40NXCU037550@slippy.cwsent.com> In-Reply-To: Message from Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> of "Sun, 03 Dec 2017 13:21:05 -0700." <CANCZdfq%2BiRDJeNFP9hKZXrDmcZZPn4jqzYZDpspiohJ%2BFMj9hA@mail.gmail.com>
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In message <CANCZdfq+iRDJeNFP9hKZXrDmcZZPn4jqzYZDpspiohJ+FMj9hA@mail.gmail.c om> , Warner Losh writes: > --001a113dbf6a68e17b055f7557cd > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 1:05 PM, Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@komquats.com> > wrote: > > > In message <201712031655.vB3GtIME041023@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net>, "Rodney > > W. > > Gri > > mes" writes: > > > > On 12/03/17 07:16, Cy Schubert wrote: > > > > > In message <CANCZdfrYdQTtjZJ_+jSVr25wjAZXd-+ > > 4atSaeT5ahfprbtXHWw@mail.gmai > > > l.c > > > > > om> > > > > > , Warner Losh writes: > > > > >> --001a1144e7002bf7b0055f684ec8 > > > > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > > >> > > > > >> On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 8:31 PM, Cy Schubert < > > Cy.Schubert@komquats.com> > > > > >> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >>> bms@ has given me USB floppy formatting code which I'd planned to > > merge > > > > >>> > > > > >> into fdformat but considering the underlying devices are so very > > differe > > > nt > > > > >>> it would be a difficult marriage. I'd be willing to support a > > ufdformat > > > > >>> instead. > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> I'm keen on getting that into the tree. I have a ufd device and a > > need t > > > o > > > > >> use it from time to time. If nothing else, I can be a reviewer of > > the co > > > de. > > > > >> Is ufd working for you? > > > > > > > > > > It does work. My todo was to merge ufdformat into fdformat but as I > > said > > > > > they are different enough that I need to work out how best to merge > > them. > > > > > Having said that, now that there's discussion of removing fdc(4) > > maybe it > > > 's > > > > > best to simply use ufdformat separately from fdformat that when we > > have t > > > he > > > > > inclination to remove fdc(4), which may be very soon now -- it would > > be > > > > > much less messy. I'm open to either option. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> Normally, I'd argue we might want to have a release where it's > > > > >>> deprecated, > > > > >>>> but it already was unusable in 11, and barely usable in 10 and > > has bee > > > n a > > > > >>>> shadow of its former self for much longer than that. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> The reason to keep some form of floppy support, eder fd or ufd is > > for t > > > he > > > > >>> purpose of copying (dd) floppy media into image files for use with > > > > >>> virtualbox or bhyve VMs. -- (One could say the same for CD and DVD > > driv > > > es. > > > > >>> My new laptop at $JOB has no CD/DVD drive.) I digress. I think the > > abil > > > ity > > > > >>> to copy media to image files for VMs might be a reason to keep > > some for > > > m of > > > > >>> support fd or ufd. > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here... > > > > > > > > > > What I'm saying is that maintaining some form of fdc support whether > > it b > > > e > > > > > in fdc(4) or a USB floppy the ability to dd floppy images for > > subsequent > > > > > use in a VM would be desirable. I'm thinking of one example brought > > to my > > > > > attention about a month ago where a person I know needed to copy old > > flop > > > py > > > > > disks to images on his hard drive in order to install an old sewing > > machi > > > ne > > > > > application in a virtualbox VM running Windows. > > > > > > > > > > Tangentially speaking, we could make the same case for CD and DVD > > drives > > > > > not too many years from now... > > > > > > > > > > Personally, I don't care much (well maybe just a little) if fdc(4) > > itself > > > > > is removed however I think we need some kind of support, which USB > > fd can > > > > > supply if or when fdc(4) is removed. Maybe we should deprecate in 12 > > and > > > > > remove in 13? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > I think as long as you can read and write USB floppy drives under > > > > FreeBSD, this change is OK. Even though floppies are old-tech they are > > > > still important: > > > > > > > > https://news.slashdot.org/story/16/05/25/2054255/us- > > military-uses-8-inch-fl > > > oppy-disks-to-coordinate-nuclear-force-operations > > > > > > > > And from time to time we see criminal cases popping up with crazy > > people > > > > using old C64's with floppy disks. I would feel bad if removing support > > > > for floppies from FreeBSD would mean you would depend on a Windows > > > > installation to read such disks. > > > > > > > > Further, keep this change two-step. First remove the code from GENERIC. > > > > Then wait a year and see if anyone complains. Then delete the source > > code. > > > > > > > > --HPS > > > > > > I was gona keep quiet on this, but, well, I just cant now. If you remove > > > the entry from GENERIC no one well complain, the more likely case is they > > > well just compile a customer kernel and do there work. So using this as > > > a "is anyone using it" is a straw man. > > > > > > That being said, even an old crusty fart like me only has had to deal > > > with a 1.44 MB floppy in nearly a year, but I was very glad that I COULD > > > deal with it using my prefered OS. > > > > > > Now I have lots of hardware around so it was not hard for me to find > > > a TEAC 1.44 drive and hook it to my forensics motherboard and deal > > > with the image, maybe it is good I am stuck on 5.4 with that system > > > as it sounds like someone has broken yet another part of FreeBSD > > > in the name of some progress. > > > > > > **RANT ON** > > > > > > Data point: OpenBSD still supports install from floppies.. so > > > my guess is that OpenBSD has been able to keep this code running, > > > it is a "Sad State of Affairs" that FreeBSD with 300+ developers > > > can not manage the same. As Eitan pointed out, its only a 1000 > > > lines so of code. Really now, we can manage to keep the mass > > > of clang and zfs running, but we can not keep a 1000 line fdc.c > > > running? > > > > The floppy driver itself is fine. It relies, however, on ISADMA working. It > got broken and nobody noticed. Also, FreeBSD has SMP while OpenBSD does > not, so that's been a much larger code velocity over all. > > > > > I further know of someone who just told me they completed > > > a converson of a stack of old 1.44MB floppies and 100MB > > > zip disks to image files, and I am pretty sure that person > > > is running 11.1 on a laptop, so this was probably done > > > with the USB fd code, so I suppose we do have some form > > > of support. It is possible that person netbooted an > > > older desktop to do the work, as he does have those types > > > of abilities. > > > > Reading works OK. It's writing that fails. So this datapoint is consistent > with my experience. There's other issues that need to be fixed apart from > ISADMA, but those are minor in comparison. I noticed that. Took a break from outside chores to quickly test: g_vfs_done():fd0[READ(offset=184320, length=512)]error = 5 > > > > > **DOUBLE RANT** > > > > > > Having been gone from the project for a long time and > > > looking at it from the outside my observation is that > > > FreeBSD is a lot of new toys that work fairly well and > > > a collection of rotting bits that get the axe every few > > > years. > > > > > > Each and everytime I have tried to move my collection > > > of systems forward I have run into yet another thing that > > > has simply been killed cause no one maintained it, broken > > > cause someone added/changed something else and allowed it > > > to sit and rot tell it was axed cause it was broken. > > > > > > If we, that is FreeBSD, continue on this path I can promise > > > you our PR data base today well look like a mud puddle > > > comparied to the ocean we shall create. > > > > > > Rather than spend time running around the tree finding > > > rotting code to delete there needs to be a serious > > > effort running around the tree FIXING the code that has > > > rotted cause some new fangled thing borked it. > > > > The trouble is that the skillsets necessary to fix the rotting code > generally only exist in a small number of people, while just about anybody > can wield an axe. And, not everybody has the hardware available to test. Sure one can use qemu but it's not the same as real hardware. > > And lots of people do fix things, but people don't notice so much because > (a) they are still working and (b) the fixes tend to be in relatively close > proximity to the breakage. It's only when they don't that it becomes an > issue. Agreed. > > > > > ** END RANTS** > > > > I've spent some time thinking about this while cleaning up the yard of old > > leaves today. All three of my machines downstairs still have fdc(4) > > controllers and take a poke at it. > > > > USB floppy does also work. The ufdformat USB floppy format (not yet > > committed, thank you bms@) also works in 12 (it didn't in 7 due to borked > > USB in 7). I've yet to decide whether to commit it as is or merge it into > > the existing fdformat. > > > I'd commit it as is (ufdformat). It's functionality is quite a bit > different because the CDBs are much less expressive than the full NEC 765 > chip supports (which is itself a subset of what you can do on a floppy, but > I digress). I'll try to post it on phab tonight. -- Cheers, Cy Schubert <Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com> FreeBSD UNIX: <cy@FreeBSD.org> Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.
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