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Date:      Mon, 16 Jun 1997 04:01:30 -0400
From:      Joel Ray Holveck <joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu>
To:        jkh@time.cdrom.com
Cc:        molter@logic.it, adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au, vas@vas.tomsk.su, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: To UNIX or not to UNIX ;-). Was: PPP problems.
Message-ID:  <199706160801.EAA18063@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu>
In-Reply-To: <18103.866446312@time.cdrom.com> (jkh@time.cdrom.com)

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>> Why not?  The reason I wrote up the profile was as the basis of a
>> plan.  The reason I asked for refinements is so that the plan can be
>> better.  If we can come up with a plan, then I would be glad to design
>> it, and coordinate (and participate on) a team to code it.  (Oh, dear,
> No, you've only outlined the _goals_.  You haven't even come remotely
> close to outlining an actual plan yet. ;-)

I've been going over plan in my head.  I didn't want to start posting
thoughts about plan until goals had been made good; a plan to poor
goals is pointless, and discussion about a plan to goals that are
changing at the moment is even more so.

>> What made the current distribution/release system work?  What about
>> the current package system?  How did these things come to be the vital
>> tools they now are?
>I or someone else just sat down and coded them.  Sure, I could have
>asked for lots of input and general feedback before doing the package
>tools or the ports collection, but then we'd still be talking about it
>to this day if I had - see the Grand Unified Console Driver project
>for a good example of that process gone deeply wrong.

I'm not familiar with this project.  Please, tell me more.

>I'm normally a big fan of getting lots of input from the crowd, don't
>get me wrong, but there are also many instances where this just plain
>doesn't work.  You either get lots of good ideas which totally
[snip]
>once with any accuracy - sometimes you have to say "yes, I agree we
>need that too, now please shut up so that I can do this other stuff
>before the current year is over." :-)

Correct.  But I am young and inexperienced, and this has been
discussed so much, I decided that finding out the result of previous
discussion that I may have forgotten would be a good thing to do.

>> I'm still a bit unclear.  And since I just stuck my foot in the thick
>> of it, then could you please help me see what it needs?
>I think you already know that - you outlined some of the points more
>than reasonably in your "UNIX goals" message which sparked this.  What
>we need now are more down-to-earth ideas.

Right.  I've been coming up with some.  I wanted to make sure that my
goals were sound before trying to implement them.

>To draw an analogy, it's as if you have a room full of unwashed
>people.

No, that's the Linux crowd.  [gr&d]

>around and saying "my, those folks sure reek, are we all in agreement
>that bathing them would be a *really good idea*?" or you can start

Actually, the message that the "UNIX goals" was in reply to was
instead saying that it would be a bad idea.

>So, as I mentioned before, what we've been over so many times are the
>goals.  We all know we have unwashed people and we all know that
>they'd smell a lot better clean.  What we need to handle here is the
>problem Mike talked about, where one guy stands up and declares "OK,
>by god, I've located some plastic piping and I know where the river
>is!  Who will join me in hooking it all up and creating a pipeline?"
>[dead silence]

Well, I've volunteered to help, as has one other gentleman other than
Mike, I believe.  What was it you said about only one or two
visionaries getting it started?

"Ladies and gentlemen, the supply of great leaders has been canceled
due to a shortage of devoted followers."

Happy hacking,
joelh

-- 
http://www.wp.com/piquan --- Joel Ray Holveck --- joelh@gnu.ai.mit.edu
All my opinions are my own, not the Free Software Foundation's.

Second law of programming:
Anything that can go wrong wi
sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped



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