Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 09:34:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Good <tomg@mailhost.nrnet.org> To: Joe Warner <jswarner@uswest.net> Cc: David Johnson <djohnson@acuson.com>, outlawtx@bga.com, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Some food for thought...(aka rant of the day) Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000531091143.18111A-100000@mailhost.nrnet.org> In-Reply-To: <39350A90.302A2A63@uswest.net>
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On Wed, 31 May 2000, Joe Warner wrote: > I've been playing around with Linux (RH 5.1-6.1 & Caldera 2.2-2.3) for about 2 > years now. I even joined a local LUG (linux users group). During one meeting, > Wes Peters, who (among other duties) writes "The Daemon's Advocate" for Daemon > News ---- http://www.daemonnews.org/200005/dadvocate.html, gave a presentation > on FreeBSD and handed out free copies of the FreeBSD 3.4 release. After taking > it home and installing it and running it for the first time, it struck me how > FreeBSD just seemed to make more sense to me than Linux. I forwarded these > thoughts onto Wes, along with my thanks and he responded by saying, "Yeah, me > too. FreeBSD acts more like a cohesive whole where Linux has slices of > brilliance along with other less desirable pieces." At the meeting, I remember Hiya Joe, Hmm...I don't know that buy this one. After all, once we move beyond the kernel and the /bin --- *sbin directories most of FreeBSD and Linux are GNU these days. I think people run what they want to run and come up with the rationale ex post facto. I truly think it is silly to say that you run one OS because you dislike another. I drive a Toyota because I like Toyota...it runs well, is reliable and I can wrench on it as I need to... FreeBSD has alot of stuff that reminds me of UnixWare, except of course that it works alot better. UnixWare is a white elephant (ATT -> Novell -> SCO). FBSD is simply a better OS. Is it better than Linux? Yes. It is more stable and definitely faster. It d*mn well better be. It has been around for 30 years in one form or another. Linux is an upstart. But if it wasn't viable, if it didn't capture the popular imagination, if it didn't have a ton of native applications we wouldn't be having this chat. After all, BSD has a linux emulator, not the other way around. What is that cliche about flattery??? When Larry Ellison ports to FBSD, followed by Sybase and Informix (and as a Johnny-Come-Lately, Borland) then it will have attained the same status as Linux in terms of it's place in the popular culture. Towards that end the integration of GNU into FBSD is a very good thing. It is happening much more quickly than in commercial unix. Good! I would prefer to see FBSD and Linux conquer the unix market, replacing even the old workhorses like DG-UX as well as the garbage implementations (like SCO OpenServer). I want FBSD to do well...I do NOT want to see it Sony Betamaxed out of the marketplace. But I don't run FBSD because I dislike Linux. ** I run FBSD because I like FBSD. And because I like Unix. ** > him saying, "The Linux community, along with the open source movement is trying > to save the world. The FreeBSD community is only trying to save the geeks!" > 8^) > > Joe > > > Thomas Good wrote: > > > On Tue, 30 May 2000, David Johnson wrote: > > > > > Thomas Good wrote: > > > > > > > Basically the *only* difference between Linux distributions is system > > > > initialisation. RedHat is very System V. So if you know UnixWare or > > > > Solaris, RH is not *that* far off. Slackware is very BSD, in fact the > > > > development teams know one another and share ideas. After all, Walnut > > > > Creek is both their homes. SuSe and Debian are somewhere in the middle. > > > > > > I was meaning something a little different. Of course, underneath, all > > > of the linuces are similar. However, over the top of that they all have > > > a different veneer. For someone who doesn't know Unix inside and out, > > > that veneer becomes important. They won't know each and every > > > configuration file by heart. They won't know that Redhat stores foo.rc > > > under /etc/foo while SuSE stores it under /etc/bar. So they'll do what > > > the manual tells them to do, and fire up Linuxconf, or YaST, or COAS, or > > > SAS, or whatever. This is the veneer, and it doesn't matter how much you > > > > David, > > > > I don't use linuxconf, YAST, Gnome Control Center (or whatever it's called), > > CDE, the UnixWare desktop or /stand/sysinstall (after installation). > > > > I download src and do the build with gmake, then put the binaries where > > I want em. It's the same on any box. So they all look pretty much > > the same. You can do this on almost any unix implementation. > > > > I don't like the Redhat thing of putting postgres stuff in /var/lib for > > example. So I don't use RPMs. I grab the src and do the build and put > > the binaries in /usr/local/pgsql. Where they belong in my view! > > > > It's the same with most any unix - you can pay the vendor for their > > prefab binaries or do it yerself. I prefer the latter. And it works > > on *any* linux or freebsd box. Once you get the concepts where they > > put the conf files isn't that important. > > > > I don't think its that tuff to get what you want from unix. But it > > takes some time to see the *big picture*. > > > > And here is my real point (ignore the one atop my head ;-) > > It is *easier* to learn unix when you use more than one implementation. > > Can I explain this clearly? I dunno...lemme try. > > > > UnixWare, my first unix (yeah what a way to get deflowered!) was a complete > > mystery to me for awhile. So I learned some linux, against the advice > > of my mentor ("You've got enought on your plate.") > > > > Then it began to click. So I procured Solaris, and FreeBSD - tried AIX too. > > The more ways I saw - of doing the same thing - the more sense the overall > > concept made. The ttymon process (for system logins) made alot more sense > > to me after I learned getty/uugetty. Hopefully I haven't explained this > > too badly. I tell my wife (a linguist) this: English grammar was utterly > > meaningless to me until I got a handle on German. Then I had an 'aha!' > > experience. Same with unix. Learning one set of rules was learning by > > rote. Comparing two systems - and appreciating both - was achieving > > a deeper understanding that transformed feeling sort of competent into > > feeling a great fondness for my favourite OS. > > > > > know the Corel veneer, it won't do you any good for SuSE or Debian. And > > > unlike typical open source software, these administration tools only > > > work for the distro they're designed for. Proficiency in YaST is useless > > > when you're faced with a Mandrake box. > > > > We are in agreement here my friend. It is like learning WordPerfect > > as opposed to vi. ;-) > > > > > To the average Linux user, Debian is as different from Caldera as IRIX > > > is from HPUX. > > > > I think you overstate a bit here, d-man... > > > > > [ snip ... ] but at least you're learning generic all-purpose > > > Unix instead of locking yourselves into a single distro. > > > > I disagree here...why? All the linuxes are is a kernel, a > > filesystem, a whole bunch of great GNU code and an initialisation > > strategy. Add in one or more package managers. Sounds like FreeBSD > > to me. ;-) > > > > No RedHatter has to use linuxconf or Gnome...No FBSDer has to use > > sysinstall. You can lift the hood on any unix you want. Use tarballs > > and gcc instead of pkg_add or rpm -i. Right? > > > > And if you think the FBSD conf resembles Solaris or UnixWare, I dunno > > about that one. And UnixWare is *AT&T Unix* - about as standard (in > > theory anyhoo) as unix gets. (Before Novell and SCO got ahold of it > > anyway. ;-) Bottom line: unix is unix. Maybe a diff paint job... > > but the similarities are greater than the differences. > > > > When I hear that FBSD is more unix than linux is, I am reminded of the > > old Japanese proverb: Every reverse side has a reverse side. ;-) > > Speaking of which, I gotta get my reverse side into gear! > > > > Nice talking to you David, > > Tom > > > > ------- North Richmond Community Mental Health Center ------- > > > > Thomas Good MIS Coordinator > > Vital Signs: tomg@ { admin | q8 } .nrnet.org > > Phone: 718-354-5528 > > Fax: 718-354-5056 > > > > /* Member: Computer Professionals For Social Responsibility */ > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > ------- North Richmond Community Mental Health Center ------- Thomas Good MIS Coordinator Vital Signs: tomg@ { admin | q8 } .nrnet.org Phone: 718-354-5528 Fax: 718-354-5056 /* Member: Computer Professionals For Social Responsibility */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message
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