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Date:      Wed, 6 Sep 2006 20:15:00 +0100
From:      "Jeff Rollin" <jeff.rollin@gmail.com>
To:        "FreeBSD Users Questions" <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org>
Subject:   Re: solaris
Message-ID:  <8a0028260609061214s2379914naf1af41b9d9b39ff@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <20060906181707.77131.qmail@web34403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References:  <8a0028260609060959jbaacd15rb1ac280563d1fbbe@mail.gmail.com> <20060906181707.77131.qmail@web34403.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

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On 06/09/06, White Hat <pigskin_referee@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --- Jeff Rollin <jeff.rollin@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 06/09/06, White Hat <pigskin_referee@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > --- Freminlins <freminlins@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 06/09/06, White Hat
> > <pigskin_referee@yahoo.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >  I have
> > > > > tried Open Office. No matter what anyone says,
> > it
> > > > is
> > > > > just not as full featured as Word 2003. It is
> > not
> > > > even
> > > > > close.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > True, but also compare the cost. Not even
> > close...
> > >
> > > Immaterial. the singularly most important feature
> > is
> > > suitability to task. If it is free and it does not
> > > work, what good is it?
> >
> >
> > In what way does it "not work"? It's enough for many
> > people, so why should
> > they pay more?
>
> I never said that anyone should pay more. I simply
> said that it was not suitable for the tasks that both
> I, and primarily my wife, use it for.


No, you said "it does not work." It's up there in black and white.

Again, the price
> of an object is secondary to its usefulness. At the
> very least it has to be compared against it.
>
> > > He/she does
> > > > > not want to read tons of manuals and spend
> > hours
> > > > in a
> > > > > frustrating attempt to get it to run.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > This is where you are completely wrong. I work
> > for
> > > > an ISP. I'm not
> > > > responsible for tech support but I keep my "ear
> > to
> > > > the ground". A VERY large
> > > > number of callers have problems configuring
> > Outlook
> > > > Express, for example. No
> > > > matter what the polls say, the experience is
> > often
> > > > very different. They may
> > > > not read the manuals (because they are no longer
> > > > supplied), they just ring a
> > > > call centre instead.
> > >
> > > Yes, the lack of documentation is a shame. Usually
> > it
> > > can be obtained for an additonal cost which I
> > suppose
> > > is better than nothing. The same lack of
> > documentation
> > > plagues every facet of software today. Of course,
> > it
> > > has been a boon for the after market book manual
> > > publishers. BTW, you have failed to document so
> > called
> > > help line assistants who are nothing more than
> > company
> > > mouth pieces who have at most a superficial
> > knowledge
> > > of the product that they are suppose to be
> > assistant a
> > > customer with. I had the experience of talking
> > with a
> > > customer support moron who tried to sell me a new
> > > router while I attempted to explain the router was
> > > fine, but the installation CD was defective. I
> > > eventually just sent it back for a replacement.
> > > Usually these individuals are barely equipped to
> > > handle the job they are given.
> > >
> > > However, you have made my point. If a user cannot
> > > decipher how to configure a simple thing like
> > Outlook
> > > Express, and there are programs available that
> > will do
> > > it for them, then how are they suppose to be
> > capable
> > > of handling a CLI OS like FreeBSD? It boggles the
> > mind
> > > -- at least mine. Worse, the configuration of OE
> > is
> > > handled by a wizard. It is truly sad when a user
> > > cannot configure something when it is simplified
> > down
> > > to that level.
> >
> >
> > So on the one hand you think that for the sake of
> > the morons FreeBSD should
> > made into something other than "a CLI OS" (which if
> > you put KDE or GNOME on
> > it it already is, btw), and on the other hand you
> > despise the morons who
> > can't even use a wizard?
>
> I never inferred that FBSD should evolve into
> anything. It performs quite nicely as a CLI.


It also performs quite nicely as a GUI, in the opinion of many.

Printing
> is not all that great, and the use of many devices
> such as web cams can prove to be a chore to install,
> but that has more to due with the creators of those
> devices and lack thereof of proper drivers, etc. Even
> devices that do work are not always fully supported.
> Again, most likely the device creators are not
> supporting the device under FreeBSD, or any other OS
> except win32. Again, it is all about monetary return.
> I cannot blame them, I like to eat too.
>
> Furthermore, I never said I despise anyone, except
> perhaps pseudo technical help employees. However, even
> they have to eat. I stated that it was a sad day when
> someone could not ever configure OE, even when
> assisted with a wizard. I think it is rather obvious
> that these individuals would not be the target market
> for FBSD.
>
> > > The average user
> > > > > does not care about configuring firewall, AV
> > or
> > > > > Spyware, etc. Just drop in a copy of ZA with
> > > > perhaps
> > > > > Sunbelt's Counter Spy and they are on their
> > way.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > That's one statement contradicting the other.
> > >
> > > How? Drop in two CDs or download the programs, run
> > > them and case closed. Neither one requires any
> > > significant configuration. The defaults work just
> > fine
> > > for most users. You could eliminate the Counter
> > Spy
> > > since ZA has its own proprietary SpyWare program,
> > but
> > > I just happen to prefer Counter Spy.
> >
> >
> > A decent router does not "require any significant
> > configuration" either,
> > despite the fact that it should include a firewall.
> > And if you use a
> > router/firewall, you shouldn't need to configure a
> > firewall on your
> > desktop/server either.
>
> The key word here is 'significant'. That varies by
> user to user. I believe that the use of an internal
> firewall might very well be dictated by a users LAN
> configuration. I only have four units networked
> together, with only one avenue to the Internet, so
> perhaps I don't need an extensive internal firewall.


I would suggest that anyone with more than one computer definitely have a
firewall-enabled router. In fact, that would be my preference in all cases
because then you don't run into needless "only compatible with Windows and
MacOS" issues.

However, I am sure that many users do. In any case, a
> router is not an AV/SpyWare detection and elimination
> program.


FreeBSD isn't known as a haven for viruses and spyware.

> BTW, if MS actually does market it 'One Care'
> > program
> > > suite, that might even obsolete that entire
> > process. I
> > > don't think they will offer it with the OS though.
> > Too
> > > much of a chance the government will protest.
> > > Personally I believe a company should be allowed
> > to
> > > market its product anyway it wants without
> > government
> > > intervention; however, that is entirely another
> > story.
> > >
> >
> >
> > That's a good idea. And I should be able to procure
> > products and settle
> > scores anyway I want without government
> > intervention, too. </sarcasm>
>
> Way out of line.


Not out of line. Thee are many, many examples of companies already getting
away with breaking the few rules that are there: why should those rules be
relaxed so that they get away with even MORE at the expense of the buyer?

No where did I even suggest the idea
> of retribution.


Nor did I, as I noted, that was sarcasm.

I assume that is what you are
> referring to by "settle scores". I believe that within
> a few carefully crafted guidelines perhaps, a
> developer should be free to create and offer for sale,
> distribution, give it away free for all I car
> (FreeBSD) any item that they so desire. Let the market
> decide whether or not the item if of any value.
> Furthermore, I never mentioned 'procure' in my
> statement. That is your own concoction. I am dead set
> fascism, socialism or any other type of 'ism' you want
> to infer when it comes to the freedom of creating and
> marketing. Obviously, with a few carefully crafted
> regulation; i.e., say of prescription drugs,
> explosives -- things like that. I don't want to get
> involved with basic economy 101 here however.
>
> --


Jeff Rollin


-- 
Proud Linux user since 1998



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