Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 14:28:42 -0400 From: Andrew Young <ayoung@mosaicarchive.com> To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD Message-ID: <3B4C348C-91B0-46B9-9670-51F9F3CB0508@mosaicarchive.com> In-Reply-To: <CAGsORuBqiodwt_EmVqB%2BfO=tgOVeZOERopSE2y=mLa8Jp6ZOjQ@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAGsORuB4yd8RKNLRWmcTx16iDOHWJkD1rnyArb98NwN%2BpwvPHA@mail.gmail.com> <63226.1347899311@critter.freebsd.dk> <CAGsORuD--BKCVB5wHEw5Q5SedhJ0reFVJtC3628tJAncbmgr8Q@mail.gmail.com> <20120917120626.51369945@bhuda.mired.org> <CAGsORuBqiodwt_EmVqB%2BfO=tgOVeZOERopSE2y=mLa8Jp6ZOjQ@mail.gmail.com>
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I spent years using Linux before I truly appreciated the key difference betw= een a "desktop environment" and a "graphical environment". Probably because e= veryone had to have a desktop environment.=20 I define graphical environment as simply X11 and a window manager. That's al= l you need to run Firefox, Gimp, etc. Because x11 is the underlying base, an= y toolkit (gtk, qt, whatever) will work just fine. A developer can pick the t= oolkit they're most comfortable with and it will work on anyone's system.=20= In contrast, a "desktop environment" builds an entirely separate layer on to= p primarily to allow the desktop applications to communicate with one anothe= r. Things like network monitoring and message notifications are usually incl= uded. This is also where developers suddenly need to choose. Do you write co= de for KDE, Gnome, or another? Users will only run one desktop environment s= o choosing one will alienate the others.=20 IMHO, a graphical environment is useful for running applications like Firefo= x and Gimp. I never run either of these on a server so I would never want to= install even a graphical environment on my servers.=20 I have no use at all for desktop environments. They're often bloated, buggy,= and provide no real value to me. I would much rather install x11 and dwm.=20= > this: a default, officially supported modern desktop environment is > essential to FreeBSD. I completely disagree. X11 + WM is more than adequate for my needs. And I do= n't need either of these on the servers whee I rely on FreeBSD.=20 Andy On Sep 17, 2012, at 1:53 PM, Zhihao Yuan <lichray@gmail.com> wrote: >> =46rom a programmer's point of view, GUI is a protocol, a graphical > language. It's true. But users don't care. Users don't care how their > graphical commands are being implemented. >=20 > Well, let's make it more straightforward. I hope people can agree with > this: a default, officially supported modern desktop environment is > essential to FreeBSD. >=20 > On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 12:06 PM, Mike Meyer <mwm@mired.org> wrote: >> On Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:40:33 -0500 >> Zhihao Yuan <lichray@gmail.com> wrote: >>> GUI is a concept. People can use WM or DE as their GUIs. X11 is not >>> usable from a user's point of view, so it's out of the question. So >>> far, your statement "Assume X11 _is_ the graphical environment" is >>> already nonsense. >>=20 >> As someone who's used X without a WM or DE, I have to disagree. I >> think PHK is dead on - X11 is a collection of protocols for working in >> a bit mapped display + pointer (aka "graphical") environment. As >> compared to a character-mapped display + keyboard (aka "command line") >> environment. >>=20 >>> And then, a modern GUI should take care of Wifi, automount, and many >>> things can't be done with a single WM. >>=20 >> You seem to be using GUI in a different manner than I'm used >> to. Graphic User Interfaces don't *do* things, they provide a >> graphical communications path (the Interface in GUI) between the user >> and tools. Asking for a GUI that takes care of Wifi and automount and >> other such things makes no more sense than asking for a mouse that >> does those things. Those things are done by *tools*. You can have >> tools with GUIs that do those things - a desktop manager, or a window >> manager (and if you think a single WM can't do all those things, you >> are looking at wimpy WMs), or a taskbar manager, or even a web-based >> systems manager. >>=20 >> Until you two can agree on what the terms mean, you're going to be >> talking past each other. But PHK seems to be using the common >> definitions. >>=20 >> Or maybe you should start over, and describe the behavior of the >> program you think FreeBSD should adopt, rather than trying to name it. >>=20 >> <mike >> -- >> Mike Meyer <mwm@mired.org> http://www.mired.org/ >> Independent Software developer/SCM consultant, email for more information= . >>=20 >> O< ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org= " >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Zhihao Yuan, nickname lichray > The best way to predict the future is to invent it. > ___________________________________________________ > 4BSD -- http://4bsd.biz/ > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"=
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