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Date:      Wed, 15 Dec 1999 21:19:47 -0400
From:      "Jeroen C. van Gelderen" <jeroen@vangelderen.org>
To:        Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>
Cc:        jmb@hub.freebsd.org, ragnar@sysabend.org, brett@lariat.org, dscheidt@enteract.com, noslenj@swbell.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it?
Message-ID:  <38583E33.3FBCE8E3@vangelderen.org>
References:  <199912160054.RAA28607@usr09.primenet.com>

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Terry Lambert wrote:
> > > The ";login:" article identifies many attacks against IKE/ISAKMP,
> > > and provides source code for one of them.
> >
> > This still has nothing to do with it's 'Clipper heritage' as you
> > originally implied[1].
> 
> I don't understand how you can make this bald a statement; the
> problems with Fortezza based systems are that the underlying
> state machine sucks.

Now you are talking about Fortezza. There is a difference between
clipper (the chip, MYK-78T) and Fortezza. You got your terminology 
wrong.

> Why is it when knee-jerk reactionaries see "Clipper", they
> automatically think I'm talking about back doors, rather than
> the quality of the technology?

Because clipper is all about backdoors and the quality of the 
clipper chip is actually rather good.

> > > The ";login:" document, or the IKE/ISAKMP document?
> >
> > The ";login:" document. The part you quoted doesn't tell us that
> > the problems stem from any 'Clipper heritage', so quote the
> > relevant part.
> 
>         A great many of the problematic specifications are due
>         to the IKE/ISAKMP framework.  This is not surprising,
>         since the early drafts used ASN.1 and were fairly clearly
>         ISO-inspired.  The observations of another ISO implementor
>         (and security analyst) appear applicable:
> 
>             The specification was so general, and left so many
>             choices, that it was necessary to hold "implementor
>             workshops" to agree on what subsets to build and
>             what choices to make.  The specification wasn't a
>             specification of a protocol.  Instead it was a
>             framework in which a protocol could be designed and
>             implemented. [Folklore-00]
> 
>         The IKE/ISAKMP framework relies on a "Domain of
>         Interpretation" (DOI) for the actual details.  IKE/ISAKMP
>         has required numerous implementation workshops to reach
>         agreement on the interpretations of the spcifications.
>         Implementation and testing has already taken several years.

Still says nothing about 'clipper' nor about Fortezza. It talks 
about ASN.1 and ISO.

> In any case, if you want to read more, you can always get a copy
> of the December ";login:" from any technical library, instead of
> having me type it in for you.

I have a copy, thanks.

Cheers,
Jeroen
-- 
Jeroen C. van Gelderen - jeroen@vangelderen.org
Interesting read: http://www.vcnet.com/bms/ JLF


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