Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 16:13:41 +0200 From: Brad Knowles <brad.knowles@skynet.be> To: Rahul Siddharthan <rsidd@online.fr>, Brad Knowles <brad.knowles@skynet.be> Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/sys/alpha/alpha clock.c Message-ID: <p0511170bb9100288a13e@[10.0.1.4]> In-Reply-To: <20020521140312.A88313@lpt.ens.fr> References: <20020517114010.A57127@regency.nsu.ru> <20020519100324.GK44562@daemon.ninth-circle.org> <20020519134348.I67779@blossom.cjclark.org> <p05111722b90de01cc974@[10.9.8.215]> <20020520195703.A79046@dragon.nuxi.com> <p05111701b90fb2744154@[10.9.8.215]> <20020521103710.C71209@lpt.ens.fr> <p05111703b90fc048bd8f@[10.0.1.4]> <20020521133026.L71209@lpt.ens.fr> <p05111705b90fe1afee46@[10.0.1.4]> <20020521140312.A88313@lpt.ens.fr>
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At 2:03 PM +0200 2002/05/21, Rahul Siddharthan wrote:
>> That's because the pronunciation of the same word is different in
>> the two languages.
>
> I don't think that's the issue. An English person, speaking in
> English and pronouncing the French male name "Jean", will pronounce it
> roughly correct, and not like the English female name "Jean".
Only if they speak French or are aware of the proper French
pronunciation, and they are aware that the person themselves is
French or from a French-speaking country or region, and therefore
would know to apply the proper French pronunciation rules to the
French name.
Otherwise, they'd almost certainly pronounce it like the female
name "Jean", or the alternative male name "Gene".
> The
> French apparently believe that, when they speak their language, they
> have the right to mutilate other people's names (but will not grant
> that right to others, ie they will complain if an English speaker
> doesn't pronounce "François" correctly).
I would say that most of the people I've met in this world have
tended to do the same sort of thing.
It's just that the French (and French-speaking people) are more
adamant about insisting that their name be pronounced properly, and
tend to get extremely upset if you cannot manage to do so -- all out
of proportion to the real gravity of the situation. Moreover, it
seems to me that they tend to use French name pronunciations and
insist on doing so, to a greater degree than most people. But this
doesn't mean that other people don't do the same.
> True, they exist. But even in a city like Paris, most of them quite
> genuinely have a very hard time with English -- both because their
> command is bad, and because they're very underconfident in using it.
> Sometimes they do make the effort anyway, but after I'd spent a few
> months here, I found that some people refused to talk to me in English
> because, they claimed, my French was better than their English. (And
> sometimes that was true.)
It's far, far worse if you just approach them and start speaking
English (unless you know them personally, and you know that they
speak English reasonably well), or if you go up to them and ask
"Parlez-vous Anglais?"
I've found that the majority of French speaking people tend to be
more understanding if you instead attempt to first explain that you
don't speak French, and give them more time to hear your atrocious
accent -- e.g., "Pardon. Je parle en petit pous Français --
parlez-vous Anglais?".
More than once I've gotten a reaction that amounted to "Yes, I
will speak zee English wiss you, but only if you promise to never
again insult my language wiss your tongue."
But then there are the hard-core types, especially in local
neighborhoods (such as the one in which you might live), which insist
that you must speak French in order to exist -- you aren't even a
person if you don't speak French. This gets particularly annoying in
a commune that is officially dual-language, and they don't even
pretend to recognize Flemish as a legally required alternative.
> If they do in fact
> speak English they'll help out, otherwise they'll wait patiently while
> you try to make your meaning clear in broken French...
We had this local baker who was really nice in helping me to
learn French. His English was excellent (although his wife didn't
speak or understand much), but he was always very kind and helpful,
and he always encouraged me to try to conduct as much of the
transaction in French as I could. Unfortunately, his wife got sick
and they sold their shop and moved to France -- Le pain de la pays de
ma grand-mére is no more.
Contrast this with a different bakery close by, where they
clearly speak English, but refuse to do so. Moreover, they get
extremely upset if you attempt to use English with them, and rather
rude and offensive. They also get rude and offensive if your French
is not very good, but not nearly so much as they do if you even ask
if they speak English.
> English-speakers, on the other hand, are often quite condescending
> towards people who speak (or write) bad English.
I tend to be much, much more understanding if the other person is
not a native English speaker. I tend to be much harsher on people
who should know better.
--
Brad Knowles, <brad.knowles@skynet.be>
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania.
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