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Date:      Wed, 23 Jan 2002 23:50:10 -0800 (PST)
From:      "f.johan.beisser" <jan@caustic.org>
To:        "Matthew D. Fuller" <fullermd@over-yonder.net>
Cc:        chip <chip@wiegand.org>, Terry Lambert <tlambert2@mindspring.com>, David Schultz <dschultz@uclink.Berkeley.EDU>, <freebsd-chat@freebsd.org>
Subject:   Re: FreeBSD Intaller (was "Re: ... RedHat ...")
Message-ID:  <20020123233500.I32624-100000@localhost>
In-Reply-To: <20020124010710.C2760@over-yonder.net>

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On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, Matthew D. Fuller wrote:

> Hm.  I must be a fairly hardcore idiot then, because I always forget the
> first time   :P

this is what reference notes are for ;)

> In fact, it took me several iterations before I realized that was the
> source of the problems; I kept thinking that all the other 'things I
> tried' were wrong too, because they didn't work, when in fact it was just
> the first failed try continuing to haunt me.  SLIP can be tricky at times,
> hitting it dead right the first time is less than presumable.

i never assume i get things dead right the first time. actually, i expect
to make mistakes (these days, given a choice, i'll simply dd stuff over to
a blank drive, and cross my fingers. this doesn't always work, though).

> Try laptops.  We all have ISA NE2k's in our junkboxes; my 386/16 has a
> NE2k out of my junkbox in it.  Most of us don't, however, have PCMCIA
> NIC's in our junkboxes, and FreeBSD's history with PCMCIA isn't quite
> stellar, so your chances of grabbing J. Random PCMCIA NIC and having it
> work haven't been that great.  Heck, the NIC in my current laptop only
> works because I have a switch; it won't negotiate half-duplex, and because
> it uses the ed driver, there's no ifconfig option to lock it to a
> speed/duplex setting.  If I had a hub, it would get about 6k/sec
> sporadically, and I'd be better off with SLIP.

i remember the PAO distrobution of FreeBSD. This pretty much made up for
most of my problems with laptops and freebsd. of course, by the time i
encountered PAO, i had a "decent" laptop (which is still around,
actually) and i chose compatable PCMCIA eathernet card. The modem, on the
other hand, has never worked..

> Is it common?  Heck no.  Is it a big glaring Problem From Hell in the
> cases where it crops up?  Heck yes.  That's pretty much the standard for
> sysinstall; not too shabby when it works, grandiose when it fails.

well, this is a glaring problem with all of the "Free" OSs. When they work
(which, in the last couple of years, is most of the time) they do a quite
decent job. but, when they don't... it's a spectacular failure that "no
one has ever seen before."

i've seen this more often than i want to admit. with more than just
freebsd, and well off in to most distrobutions of Linux.

> Well, in the simple cases (i.e., what most people do most of the time),
> when you don't make big mistakes, that's exactly how it is; and that's
> one reason why, warts and all, it's endured so long; it works just well
> enough that nobody can quite get up the gumption to start from scratch
> (which is necessary) to write a new one (for free), because "Somebody
> will do it Some Time Real Soon Now", but it's broken enough that we can
> all bitch about it constantly until that Real Soon Now time comes.   :-)

i guess most folks find it "good enough"..

i found this additude in the NetBSD community aswell, when it came to
their pain in the @$$ installer. So far, out of the remaining "Free OS"
BSDs, i've found FreeBSDs to be the more user friendly, and OpenBSDs to be
slick and admin friendly - if not quite granular enough..

outside of that, the various linux distros that i've tried have either
failed due to either awkward dependancy issues, or simply been to
frustrating to do a "simple" install of the OS.

as far as "writing a new installer", though, i think such a task is a bit
daunting, since this is the first introduction to the OS that every user
will have. i admit i am intimidated by the thought of dealing with that.

-------/ f. johan beisser /--------------------------------------+
  http://caustic.org/~jan                      jan@caustic.org
    "John Ashcroft is really just the reanimated corpse
         of J. Edgar Hoover." -- Tim Triche


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