Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2015 14:08:06 -0400 From: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> To: Marcel Moolenaar <marcel@xcllnt.net> Cc: Ian Lepore <ian@freebsd.org>, David Chisnall <theraven@FreeBSD.org>, Steve Kargl <sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu>, Alexander Kabaev <kabaev@gmail.com>, Marcel Moolenaar <marcel@FreeBSD.org>, src-committers@freebsd.org, svn-src-all@freebsd.org, svn-src-head@freebsd.org Subject: Re: svn commit: r284198 - head/bin/ls Message-ID: <39E9FC16-B010-4B22-B0FF-C9E6C0447D57@bsdimp.com> In-Reply-To: <656256CF-58BF-492B-BA66-49B095407E9A@xcllnt.net> References: <201506100127.t5A1RdX6051959@svn.freebsd.org> <20150612204309.11dd3391@kan> <20150613024916.GA98218@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> <1434208622.1415.57.camel@freebsd.org> <C88CB169-12FE-4692-92AA-5C7D41BB61DF@FreeBSD.org> <1434210429.1415.65.camel@freebsd.org> <656256CF-58BF-492B-BA66-49B095407E9A@xcllnt.net>
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--Apple-Mail=_EE4EACF1-5C81-4B15-BE28-BBBB655AB8B0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Jun 13, 2015, at 12:25 PM, Marcel Moolenaar <marcel@xcllnt.net> = wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On Jun 13, 2015, at 11:47 AM, Ian Lepore <ian@freebsd.org> wrote: >>=20 >> On Sat, 2015-06-13 at 11:38 -0400, David Chisnall wrote: >>> On 13 Jun 2015, at 11:17, Ian Lepore <ian@freebsd.org> wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> If you would have told me a year ago that you had a simple scheme = that >>>> could make 30 years of experience maintaining code for unix-like = systems >>>> completely worthless I would have been skeptical, but it seems = we're >>>> well on our way. >>>=20 >>> There is a lot of heckling and unhelpful hyperbole in this thread. = Reading the xo_emit format strings takes a little bit of getting used = to, but the same is true of printf - it=E2=80=99s just that we=E2=80=99re = already used to printf. The structured parts (xo_open_container, = xo_close_container and friends) are clear and descriptive. The changes = are fairly invasive, but the benefits are also very large for anyone who = is wanting to automate administration of FreeBSD systems. >>>=20 >>> If you have suggestions for how the libxo APIs could be improved, = then please let us know - Phil is very reception to suggestions but = objections along the lines of =E2=80=98it=E2=80=99s not what I=E2=80=99m = used to and changes sometimes break things so we should never have = changes=E2=80=99 are not helpful. >>>=20 >>=20 >> "This is a piece of crap that needs to be excised from the system and >> done a different way" is useful input whether you agree with it or = not. >=20 > Actually: no. >=20 > Not only does one not demonstrate an understanding of the problem > by calling it =E2=80=9Ccrap=E2=80=9D and thus leaving the recipient to = wonder whether > it=E2=80=99s worth his or her time to even respond; the sentence also = lack a > concrete suggestion and, last but not least, is utter after this was > all discussed on arch@, making it very much one of =E2=80=9Ctoo = little, too > late=E2=80=9D. >=20 > So, not useful at all. My complaints have been specific: libxo conversion broke things, but didn=E2=80=99t fix them before going on to convert more things (which = broke more things). This suggests a lack of competent testing as a standard operating procedure and pointing it out is helpful. And specifically about ls: it was already way overloaded. Overloading it further seemed to be unwise: a new program would have been better since it is a thin interface to fts(3). I didn=E2=80=99t recall = seeing a specific discussion about ls, but the original thread in arch grew to be quite = large and maybe I missed something. While I dislike libxo in general, I do understand why it is being done. = I see the use in general, and the benefits. I have nothing better to = offer. I object to the execution in small aspects. Warner --Apple-Mail=_EE4EACF1-5C81-4B15-BE28-BBBB655AB8B0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJVfHGHAAoJEGwc0Sh9sBEALH4P/RnUIHaoh5ui6wDGdCqXNBTR 7fVPs+d9wSlNz4HoZC/ErLYO6HN+RgCaHRyxpIfIUM1vAGmtfA1aEUTyaVyEk0Fy UBc4Wnwh6nImnnkuH55dzHZCqC/JQ6MvlfYiCZpZ9EDZyzQMhVSRi81Tz5ftbgqE 4dyHLLMVc/1ESXUQc563VxBIdCawB6ILj7JghETGLjjGLb6g7qliC4Lm6Hpd/S9i JfhBv+omO9ZUMQXXUVra99Qrqgh01Q+p6JBnwglEKx1IvLB/0+UmJ5v6q4QpsaIQ nc1vth29YjDZCLHmQhBxRJgZb8lAsrrnR4h4/cck5/3AwGhf2ljpNdPEhGNc0M8B ktyY3TNskSryVPK/BbODwNhNE0Vo1sZ/uc6mDmodVfk8F542jNnoDRRF4peCTCOF 9n9oHrW0VjVhgwtVShRbJq5SbrnDBab7BwaoZgwMYaJycs245dik1WWoeIXaH4CG H8KXzeLm5kyPWULAPZryLDh+RE++YXeCa0TV5y4Hjk3S4htZxhfYUCMezKBGg+Fu 460mUXyu1QNSxv+reysWyvnzQ6QNF0e4zNCG54SwSAfW60bcbfc2MmFyfQxluzan XeMXiK9QmGA47o7IDU9Gw28zdUkcv2XPrtJQ770/nJIYEa6L2thYu+oPT3CSBSqx K89QeLLlCls1RbPBlwAp =wOkc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_EE4EACF1-5C81-4B15-BE28-BBBB655AB8B0--
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