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Date:      Mon, 15 Apr 96 16:32:51 MDT
From:      Greg Lehey <lehey.pad@sni.de>
To:        jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard)
Cc:        hackers@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: Unices are created equal, but ...
Message-ID:  <199604151434.QAA04688@nixpbe.pdb.sni.de>
In-Reply-To: <7724.829482854@time.cdrom.com>; from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Apr 14, 96 4:54 am

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>> I am very disappointed. It seems that people of Unix B mailing list who have
>> understood the true meaning of my questionnable comparison do not reply to
>> that mail.
>
> Or the number of people who were able to divine the twisty
> machinations of your logic (or knew which kinds of chicken bones to
> throw and how to read them) equaled precisely zero.  You seem to have
> a talent for making broad inferences from the smallest scraps of data! :-)

In all fairness, I think you're being unfair to Gerard.  You're
judging him by our standards, and I don't think he understands.  If
you flame him (especially copied to the Linux kernel hackers, where I
suspect you'll find a lot of people like him--you'll notice I have
left them out of this message), you'll just make us look arrogant and
uncooperative.  I think you should have gently explained the errors of
his ways.

>> Is that system "Unix A", "Unix B" or "Unix S"? It is not the question.
>> The question is to use a Unix system or a Gates's system.
>> A little unfair for us.
>
> So then what use are BYTE benchmarks in this context?  Why are you
> not out benchmarking WinNT against YourFavoriteFreeUNIX?
>
> Remember: You were the one who came to US with a set of benchmark
> results and very unclear motives (the telepathy quotient for both
> groups still being somewhat on the low side).  Now you attempt to tell
> us that this had something to do with people chosing Windows over any
> of the free UNIXes?  Sorry, it does not follow.

Sure.  But why not give him the benefit of the doubt?  If it turns out
he really *is* trying to put "Unix B" down, that will just make him
look more stupid.  But I'm really not sure.

>> I was expecting that Unix B version 2.0.5 was still a little FASTER that
>> Unix A version 1.3.87, and I get the OPPOSITE.
>
> So what?  The data did not fit your expectations, and that proves only
> one thing: You should not harbor faulty expectations!  "Doctor, it
> hurts when I do *this*!"

I think what he's trying to say here is "I thought any kind of FreeBSD
would run rings round Linux, and now I find that's not always the
case".  Certainly an initial expectation that puts him on more neutral
ground.

>> The difference is that I wrote that my benckmark is "questionnable" and
>> give enough informations to guess missing informations.
>
> Phooey.  There was nothing to "guess." - the situation has changed and
> the numbers have changed and anyone who tries to extrapolate from a
> non-linear curve is a fool, nothing more, nothing less.

Or completely inexperienced.  As I say, we should be trying to make
friends with these guys and help explain to them what's really going
on.

>> Most of Unix end users are not able to guess the MISSING informations.
>> They BELEIVE what we CLAIM.

Put in another form, "Most UNIX end users are even less experienced
than I am".

>> 3 - It seems to me that now, current Linux is as FAST as FreeBSD-current.
>> Good news!!!!!!!!!!

Well, that really shows his understanding of the material, doesn't it?

> To you, clearly.  You've no agenda at all here, have you?  Please,
> just go away, Gerard!  Your logic is flawed, your reasoning suspect
> and your preconceived agenda very clear indeed.  Such "unbiased
> reporting" we hardly need more of in this world, on *either* side!
> You are simply trying to stir things up for no good reason and you are
> not accomplishing anything positive here, so knock it off!

He'll go away.  So will a lot of others who might have been thinking
of playing with FreeBSD.  Not because they think it's bad, but because
the FreeBSD people are so snotty.

Guys, I understand you, and this kind of comparison gets on my nerves
too.  But flaming wannabees isn't going to help anything.

Greg



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