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Date:      Tue, 25 Jun 2024 10:21:04 +0200
From:      Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz>
To:        Harry Schmalzbauer <freebsd@omnilan.de>, ports@freebsd.org
Subject:   Re: git: 0668752 Revert "Framework: Introduce bsd.sponsor.mk"
Message-ID:  <088ebbb6-bd7f-4167-964f-9aa83d36c5e0@quip.cz>
In-Reply-To: <aef95175-249f-4e77-877f-217e7c41e524@omnilan.de>
References:  <aef95175-249f-4e77-877f-217e7c41e524@omnilan.de>

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On 25/06/2024 09:39, Harry Schmalzbauer wrote:
>> Revert "Framework: Introduce bsd.sponsor.mk"
>>
>> This reverts commit 274cd4df4dcce0a9aa78da47bb6e35ab3dbcbf8c
> 
> 
> See also: https://reviews.freebsd.org/D44487
> 
>  >  In D44487#1014651, @mat wrote:
>  >>
>  >>         but we want users to stop using ports and use packagesPiotr 
> Kubaj <pkubaj_at_anongoth.pl> wrote on
> 
> This in fact *will force users into dependency hell like on Linux*.

Pushing people to use packages sounds comical. Are we really talking 
about those packages that are not built at all, like Signal Desktop and 
many others?

But I remain calm. We're still many years away from FreeBSD packages 
being where Linux packages have been for years. So anyone who wants a 
non-default version (PHP, Python, Perl...) still has to build their 
package set in Poudriere or use raw ports.


> To use clear words: I dislike paternalism and general decisions made 
> under the hat of portmgr@ during the recent years.
> There are plenty of Linux distributions doing it 'right' and making it 
> easy for 'the users'.
> Please stop forcing FreeBSD into that direction - you will loose those 
> 'users' able and willing to dig deeper and improve/fix/extend software.
> 
> There are portmgr@ people deleting foreign ports for no reason and now 
> _you_ decide that Gleb's bsd.sponsor.mk needs approval - Approval from 
> people who destroy one of the key principals of FreeBSD.
> This is ridiculous. Users will need to approve portmgr@ decisions! Your 
> revert woulnd't get approval!
> But better not to ask but to dictate of course. That way will allow 
> portmgr@ to continue dismantling FreeBSD from the inner.
> 
> To return to the topic:
> I liked the idea very much.
> It is very important that skilled people are supported by their employer 
> to work on OpenSource projects, which directly or indirectly involves 
> FreeBSD.
> Naming sponsors might attract more skilled people - not those looking 
> for arbitrary company paying them their bills, but those enthusiasts and 
> smart ones, who have chosen FreeBSD instead of any fancy Linux 
> distribution, because on FreeBSD it's much easier to participate or add 
> customization in a sensible and fertile manner.
> ports/ was and still is a very important entrance. FreeBSD will decay if 
> it only has consumers! (and if ports/ is continued to be made 
> distracting users)
> If there are only paid people left to do the work, FreeBSD won't 
> improve, simply because there will be much less creative, fresh and 
> individual ideas! This especially would harm FreeBSD since it hasn't 
> billions to spend just add human resources by try'n'error.
> (Look at any commercial software product after 10 years evolution with 
> paid people - now name ONE, which is better today than it was 10 years 
> ago. Better for the customer/user, not for the vendor! As time goes by, 
> the advantage relation will turn imho, but that's another topic)
> 
> Naming sponsors imho improves the willingness of employers trying out 
> active OpenSource partnerships and allowing their employees to spend 
> time not only on CONSUMING OpenSource, but on participating. This can be 
> for mutual benefit. OpenSource doesn't work with consumers only, and 
> supplier resources aren't available for free!
> Sponsorship naming was always an appreciated additional meta info.
> 
> If you need time to lift this to be beneficial for packages too, take 
> your time, but don't remove it just because _you_ or portmgr@ as a whole 
> want users to force using packages. Please stop dictating FreeBSD users!
> 
> 




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