Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 15:04:14 -0700 From: Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> To: Jan Bramkamp <crest@rlwinm.de> Cc: FreeBSD Current <freebsd-current@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: HEADS UP: wireless KPI and KBI and FreeBSD 15 Message-ID: <CANCZdfrK_79aw1kg72%2B07ATfjyOnDAqsV3xt6fwua625A1xuFg@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <b22a18d4-2b39-46ad-9888-53c189e41182@rlwinm.de> References: <114q5890-nrs9-55r5-44n9-86506985490s@SerrOFQ.bet> <b22a18d4-2b39-46ad-9888-53c189e41182@rlwinm.de>
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[-- Attachment #1 --] On Wed, Jun 4, 2025, 2:57 PM Jan Bramkamp <crest@rlwinm.de> wrote: > On 04.06.25 19:51, Bjoern A. Zeeb wrote: > > Hello, > > > > Cc: wireless, current, stable, desktop > > > > FreeBSD WiFi development has regained traction. We are facing a > > decision with FreeBSD 15 coming before the end of this year [1]. > > > > In order to continue WiFi development, upcoming changes will inevitably > > break the net80211-driver and net80211-userland interfaces. > > By FreeBSD's standards those would not be mergeable to stable branches, > > such as stable/15 then. > > > > This would imply development happening in FreeBSD 16-CURRENT (main at > > that point) would stay there. The first release to ship anything major > > beyond now would be FreeBSD 16.0 in December 2027 [1]. > > > > After some discussion we think this is not a feasible solution and we > > will declare the KPI and KBI for wireless as unstable in FreeBSD 15. > > > > This allows us to merge changes from main into stable/15 for inclusion > > in future point releases (e.g., 15.1, 15.2, etc.) as the code matures. > > However, this also means that during the lifetime of FreeBSD 15, we may > > introduce breaking changes affecting out-of-tree and in-tree drivers, > > userland-kernel interfaces, and chipsets. We will address these > > disruptions as they arise. > > > > Before finalizing this decision, we invite feedback from the community. > > If you have concerns or objections, please speak up now. > > > If the breaking changes are already known it would probably be best get > stubs into the 15-stable ABI, > > but otherwise go ahead declare the ABI unstable. > > Please keep in mind that WiFi could be a users only available network > connectivity and treat it the the care it deserves in the release notes. > > Is there a release engineering checklist this could be added to until > the ABI stabilizes again? > If you update userland and kernel at the same time, life will be good. It's only when you have skew that there's a problem. So install both for src build, or update all the pkgbase packages at once. Warner > [-- Attachment #2 --] <div dir="auto"><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jun 4, 2025, 2:57 PM Jan Bramkamp <<a href="mailto:crest@rlwinm.de">crest@rlwinm.de</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On 04.06.25 19:51, Bjoern A. Zeeb wrote:<br> > Hello,<br> ><br> > Cc: wireless, current, stable, desktop<br> ><br> > FreeBSD WiFi development has regained traction. We are facing a<br> > decision with FreeBSD 15 coming before the end of this year [1].<br> ><br> > In order to continue WiFi development, upcoming changes will inevitably<br> > break the net80211-driver and net80211-userland interfaces.<br> > By FreeBSD's standards those would not be mergeable to stable branches,<br> > such as stable/15 then.<br> ><br> > This would imply development happening in FreeBSD 16-CURRENT (main at<br> > that point) would stay there. The first release to ship anything major<br> > beyond now would be FreeBSD 16.0 in December 2027 [1].<br> ><br> > After some discussion we think this is not a feasible solution and we<br> > will declare the KPI and KBI for wireless as unstable in FreeBSD 15.<br> ><br> > This allows us to merge changes from main into stable/15 for inclusion<br> > in future point releases (e.g., 15.1, 15.2, etc.) as the code matures.<br> > However, this also means that during the lifetime of FreeBSD 15, we may<br> > introduce breaking changes affecting out-of-tree and in-tree drivers,<br> > userland-kernel interfaces, and chipsets. We will address these<br> > disruptions as they arise.<br> ><br> > Before finalizing this decision, we invite feedback from the community.<br> > If you have concerns or objections, please speak up now.<br> ><br> If the breaking changes are already known it would probably be best get <br> stubs into the 15-stable ABI,<br> <br> but otherwise go ahead declare the ABI unstable.<br> <br> Please keep in mind that WiFi could be a users only available network <br> connectivity and treat it the the care it deserves in the release notes.<br> <br> Is there a release engineering checklist this could be added to until <br> the ABI stabilizes again?<br></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">If you update userland and kernel at the same time, life will be good. It's only when you have skew that there's a problem. So install both for src build, or update all the pkgbase packages at once.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Warner </div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> </blockquote></div></div></div>home | help
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