Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2023 04:10:41 +0000 (UTC) From: Paul Pathiakis <pathiaki2@yahoo.com> To: FreeBSD Mailing List <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org>, Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> Subject: Re: Docker Message-ID: <1047709965.4366598.1681704641048@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <92f6a9df-fd1e-9411-6093-fc8a145add17@tundraware.com> References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <CA%2B1FSijc%2B-OLNsyFNdR=jP3VzMi4zUE92i5iv9Pfg6AryDy_KQ@mail.gmail.com> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <CA%2B1FSihVrJ8cZ4ZU6mMr0sKJsZ98V4fh2vpDLugw7MGj-%2BEBPg@mail.gmail.com> <CA%2B1FSijL50mQ-HveBA4HZeNkSoaORv=aty-15nNLzn9amzY_nw@mail.gmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <CA%2B1FSigV_pPwVW%2BDd8WZYGcNQVt7%2BYOcsnJFoRhS6jL5A636pg@mail.gmail.com> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <CA%2B1FSihVPCQ6tp8u=aqnLyyOPpCMrnhYGcC8bCUgRbFHTdY5sA@mail.gmail.com> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <20230412155252.5e38ea4728bd52dc798852fc@sohara.org> <1d0a7ed1-9330-49df-9b66-9ee4387de511@app.fastmail.com> <78F4160A-2D26-4A22-9139-A9 132FC42688@ellael.org> <8f3a86806377c2c92039eaf2765f5b85862de178.camel@riseup.net> <CA%2B1FSij0N-CRhMRXVUK81BWPTn0vDVcbQSF2Q11Zz%2BgJdL_Ddw@mail.gmail.com> <858859542.4652196.1681696294734@mail.yahoo.com> <92f6a9df-fd1e-9411-6093-fc8a145a dd17@tundraware.com>
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Believe it or not Tim, I do agree with you on a lot your points.
However, in the hey-day of BSD based derivatives, I saw a lot of the issues=
.=C2=A0 I laughed on the Hotmail transition.=C2=A0 A 10x transition to NT4 =
machines...
Well, I've been in hundreds and seen more than just one.
But again, you're right it's a rounding error.=C2=A0 However, all the 'cool=
things' come from BSD.... from PF, SSH, etc and it will continue to happen=
.
AWS does have FreeBSD as does Azure.
And you're right, I know what the reality is.=C2=A0 I live the delusion tha=
t some day.... we'll go back to code optimization and proper methodologies =
instead of throwing hardware at it.
Also, I don't believe anyone should have an 'inventor' moniker when they co=
py the bulk of code from the back of a Minix book that happened to have the=
source in it.
Last, BSD 4.0, 4.1, 4.2, 4.3Tahoe, 4.3Reno and 4.4. :D=C2=A0 Govt was all o=
ver BSD for many years.=C2=A0 The problem was the world changed and shortcu=
ts and ridiculous excuses took hold.
Nice meeting you and have a good one,
Paul
On Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 10:21:55 PM EDT, Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tund=
raware.com> wrote: =20
=20
On 4/16/23 20:51, Paul Pathiakis wrote:
> I'm sorry.... I almost ROFL when I read that FreeBSD is used 'less' in th=
e industry....=C2=A0 You 'like' both Linux and FreeBSD...
> However, you don't seem to understand the philosophical differences in th=
e development of the two projects.
You're kidding yourself (as all true religious zealots do).=C2=A0 BSD is my=
preferred OS. I've been using it since
well before there was even a notion of BSD386.=C2=A0 But to claim it's in w=
ide use in commercial settings
is a particular form of hallucination.=C2=A0 I have been in many, many, man=
y data centers as a consultant
and as an employee.=C2=A0 There I find Windows, SunOS, AIX, and Linux in ab=
undance.=C2=A0 BSD shows up only as an embedded
system in things like NAS systems.=C2=A0 In all the DCs I've ever been in, =
among the many
thousands of servers I've surveyed, I think I've found maybe one instance o=
f a freestanding BSD server.
Yes, there are companies like Apple using a desktop derived from BSD but th=
at's not what the users actually
experience unless they choose to run at the CLI.=C2=A0 The users experience=
some version of the Aqua UI and all the
cruft that goes with it. Yes, companies Apache and (in the past) Hotmail us=
e BSD, but c'mon, that's rounding
error in the scheme of things.=C2=A0 Oracle, Google, and AWS clouds are all=
built on linux and represent
hundreds of thousands or even millions of payloads.=C2=A0 Even Azure has gr=
udgingly made room for this.
Go try to find a mainstream cloud vendor with a standard BSD image availabl=
e.=C2=A0 The only one I ever found
was Digital Ocean and they're relatively small.
Linux and Windows dominate the server room and industry by a huge margin.=
=C2=A0 This is observably true, not
some wild opinion.=C2=A0 Do I wish this were no so. Yes.=C2=A0 Do I think t=
he FreeBSD community has a superior
release disciple and overall higher quality quality.=C2=A0 Certainly.=C2=A0=
But I cooperate with Reality, I don't
engage in wishful thinking to make professional choices.=C2=A0 You only hav=
e to look at the number of jobs
available for Linux experience vs. those that name BSD in any form to get a=
clue where the center
of gravity is.
Every few years someone starts another one of this ridiculous "My OS, Is Be=
tter Than Your OS"
arguments which are fundamentally useless.
=20
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<html><head></head><body><div class=3D"ydpb976f039yahoo-style-wrap" style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px=
;"><div></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Believe it or not Tim, I do =
agree with you on a lot your points.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"f=
alse"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">However, in the hey-=
day of BSD based derivatives, I saw a lot of the issues. I laughed on=
the Hotmail transition. A 10x transition to NT4 machines...</div><di=
v dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=
=3D"false">Well, I've been in hundreds and seen more than just one.</div><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=
=3D"false">But again, you're right it's a rounding error. However, al=
l the 'cool things' come from BSD.... from PF, SSH, etc and it will continu=
e to happen.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">AWS does have FreeBSD as does Azure.</div><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=
=3D"false">And you're right, I know what the reality is. I live the d=
elusion that some day.... we'll go back to code optimization and proper met=
hodologies instead of throwing hardware at it.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-s=
etdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Also, I do=
n't believe anyone should have an 'inventor' moniker when they copy the bul=
k of code from the back of a Minix book that happened to have the source in=
it.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"=
data-setdir=3D"false">Last, BSD 4.0, 4.1, 4.2, 4.3Tahoe, 4.3Reno and 4.4. =
:D Govt was all over BSD for many years. The problem was the wo=
rld changed and shortcuts and ridiculous excuses took hold.</div><div dir=
=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"fa=
lse">Nice meeting you and have a good one,</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdi=
r=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Paul<br></div>=
<div><br></div>
=20
</div><div id=3D"ydp5d037380yahoo_quoted_2215561006" class=3D"ydp5d=
037380yahoo_quoted">
<div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
=20
<div>
On Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 10:21:55 PM EDT, Tim Danel=
iuk <tundra@tundraware.com> wrote:
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><div dir=3D"ltr">On 4/16/23 20:51, Paul Pathiakis wrot=
e:<div class=3D"ydp5d037380yqt6844183864" id=3D"ydp5d037380yqtfd88706"><br =
clear=3D"none">> I'm sorry.... I almost ROFL when I read that FreeBSD is=
used 'less' in the industry.... You 'like' both Linux and FreeBSD...=
<br clear=3D"none">> However, you don't seem to understand the philosoph=
ical differences in the development of the two projects.</div><br clear=3D"=
none"><br clear=3D"none">You're kidding yourself (as all true religious zea=
lots do). BSD is my preferred OS. I've been using it since<br clear=
=3D"none">well before there was even a notion of BSD386. But to claim=
it's in wide use in commercial settings<br clear=3D"none">is a particular =
form of hallucination. I have been in many, many, many data centers =
as a consultant<br clear=3D"none">and as an employee. There I find Wi=
ndows, SunOS, AIX, and Linux in abundance. BSD shows up only as an em=
bedded<br clear=3D"none">system in things like NAS systems. In all th=
e DCs I've ever been in, among the many<br clear=3D"none">thousands of serv=
ers I've surveyed, I think I've found maybe one instance of a freestanding =
BSD server.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Yes, there are companies l=
ike Apple using a desktop derived from BSD but that's not what the users ac=
tually<br clear=3D"none">experience unless they choose to run at the CLI.&n=
bsp; The users experience some version of the Aqua UI and all the<br clear=
=3D"none">cruft that goes with it. Yes, companies Apache and (in the past) =
Hotmail use BSD, but c'mon, that's rounding<br clear=3D"none">error in the =
scheme of things. Oracle, Google, and AWS clouds are all built on lin=
ux and represent<br clear=3D"none">hundreds of thousands or even millions o=
f payloads. Even Azure has grudgingly made room for this.<br clear=3D=
"none">Go try to find a mainstream cloud vendor with a standard BSD image a=
vailable. The only one I ever found<br clear=3D"none">was Digital Oce=
an and they're relatively small.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Linux=
and Windows dominate the server room and industry by a huge margin. =
This is observably true, not<br clear=3D"none">some wild opinion. Do =
I wish this were no so. Yes. Do I think the FreeBSD community has a s=
uperior<br clear=3D"none">release disciple and overall higher quality quali=
ty. Certainly. But I cooperate with Reality, I don't<br clear=
=3D"none">engage in wishful thinking to make professional choices. Yo=
u only have to look at the number of jobs<br clear=3D"none">available for L=
inux experience vs. those that name BSD in any form to get a clue where the=
center<br clear=3D"none">of gravity is.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"non=
e">Every few years someone starts another one of this ridiculous "My OS, Is=
Better Than Your OS"<br clear=3D"none">arguments which are fundamentally u=
seless.<div class=3D"ydp5d037380yqt6844183864" id=3D"ydp5d037380yqtfd15924"=
><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none=
"></div></div></div>
</div>
</div></body></html>
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