Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2025 00:16:51 +0200 From: Jan Bramkamp <crest@rlwinm.de> To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: HEADS UP: wireless KPI and KBI and FreeBSD 15 Message-ID: <81d53b6a-dd89-4d53-986d-171cec48233f@rlwinm.de> In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfrK_79aw1kg72%2B07ATfjyOnDAqsV3xt6fwua625A1xuFg@mail.gmail.com> References: <114q5890-nrs9-55r5-44n9-86506985490s@SerrOFQ.bet> <b22a18d4-2b39-46ad-9888-53c189e41182@rlwinm.de> <CANCZdfrK_79aw1kg72%2B07ATfjyOnDAqsV3xt6fwua625A1xuFg@mail.gmail.com>
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[-- Attachment #1 --]
On 05.06.25 00:04, Warner Losh wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 4, 2025, 2:57 PM Jan Bramkamp <crest@rlwinm.de> wrote:
>
> On 04.06.25 19:51, Bjoern A. Zeeb wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > Cc: wireless, current, stable, desktop
> >
> > FreeBSD WiFi development has regained traction. We are facing a
> > decision with FreeBSD 15 coming before the end of this year [1].
> >
> > In order to continue WiFi development, upcoming changes will
> inevitably
> > break the net80211-driver and net80211-userland interfaces.
> > By FreeBSD's standards those would not be mergeable to stable
> branches,
> > such as stable/15 then.
> >
> > This would imply development happening in FreeBSD 16-CURRENT
> (main at
> > that point) would stay there. The first release to ship
> anything major
> > beyond now would be FreeBSD 16.0 in December 2027 [1].
> >
> > After some discussion we think this is not a feasible solution
> and we
> > will declare the KPI and KBI for wireless as unstable in FreeBSD 15.
> >
> > This allows us to merge changes from main into stable/15 for
> inclusion
> > in future point releases (e.g., 15.1, 15.2, etc.) as the code
> matures.
> > However, this also means that during the lifetime of FreeBSD 15,
> we may
> > introduce breaking changes affecting out-of-tree and in-tree
> drivers,
> > userland-kernel interfaces, and chipsets. We will address these
> > disruptions as they arise.
> >
> > Before finalizing this decision, we invite feedback from the
> community.
> > If you have concerns or objections, please speak up now.
> >
> If the breaking changes are already known it would probably be
> best get
> stubs into the 15-stable ABI,
>
> but otherwise go ahead declare the ABI unstable.
>
> Please keep in mind that WiFi could be a users only available network
> connectivity and treat it the the care it deserves in the release
> notes.
>
> Is there a release engineering checklist this could be added to until
> the ABI stabilizes again?
>
>
> If you update userland and kernel at the same time, life will be good.
> It's only when you have skew that there's a problem. So install both
> for src build, or update all the pkgbase packages at once.
Are there neither WiFi driver kernel modules in ports nor any consumers
of the unstable ABIs (e.g. a WiFi manager other than the base system
wpa_supplicant)?
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 05.06.25 00:04, Warner Losh wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CANCZdfrK_79aw1kg72+07ATfjyOnDAqsV3xt6fwua625A1xuFg@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="auto">
<div><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jun 4, 2025,
2:57 PM Jan Bramkamp <<a href="mailto:crest@rlwinm.de"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">crest@rlwinm.de</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On
04.06.25 19:51, Bjoern A. Zeeb wrote:<br>
> Hello,<br>
><br>
> Cc: wireless, current, stable, desktop<br>
><br>
> FreeBSD WiFi development has regained traction. We
are facing a<br>
> decision with FreeBSD 15 coming before the end of
this year [1].<br>
><br>
> In order to continue WiFi development, upcoming
changes will inevitably<br>
> break the net80211-driver and net80211-userland
interfaces.<br>
> By FreeBSD's standards those would not be mergeable
to stable branches,<br>
> such as stable/15 then.<br>
><br>
> This would imply development happening in FreeBSD
16-CURRENT (main at<br>
> that point) would stay there. The first release to
ship anything major<br>
> beyond now would be FreeBSD 16.0 in December 2027
[1].<br>
><br>
> After some discussion we think this is not a feasible
solution and we<br>
> will declare the KPI and KBI for wireless as unstable
in FreeBSD 15.<br>
><br>
> This allows us to merge changes from main into
stable/15 for inclusion<br>
> in future point releases (e.g., 15.1, 15.2, etc.) as
the code matures.<br>
> However, this also means that during the lifetime of
FreeBSD 15, we may<br>
> introduce breaking changes affecting out-of-tree and
in-tree drivers,<br>
> userland-kernel interfaces, and chipsets. We will
address these<br>
> disruptions as they arise.<br>
><br>
> Before finalizing this decision, we invite feedback
from the community.<br>
> If you have concerns or objections, please speak up
now.<br>
><br>
If the breaking changes are already known it would
probably be best get <br>
stubs into the 15-stable ABI,<br>
<br>
but otherwise go ahead declare the ABI unstable.<br>
<br>
Please keep in mind that WiFi could be a users only
available network <br>
connectivity and treat it the the care it deserves in the
release notes.<br>
<br>
Is there a release engineering checklist this could be
added to until <br>
the ABI stabilizes again?<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">If you update userland and kernel at the same
time, life will be good. It's only when you have skew that
there's a problem. So install both for src build, or update
all the pkgbase packages at once.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Are there neither WiFi driver kernel modules in ports nor any
consumers of the unstable ABIs (e.g. a WiFi manager other than the
base system wpa_supplicant)?<br>
</p>
</body>
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