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Date:      Sun, 14 Jun 2015 19:46:05 +0100
From:      Bruce Simpson <bms@fastmail.net>
To:        Steve Kargl <sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu>
Cc:        Slawa Olhovchenkov <slw@zxy.spb.ru>,  Craig Rodrigues <rodrigc@FreeBSD.org>, Marcel Moolenaar <marcel@xcllnt.net>,  "svn-src-head@freebsd.org" <svn-src-head@freebsd.org>, "svn-src-all@freebsd.org" <svn-src-all@freebsd.org>,  Marcel Moolenaar <marcel@freebsd.org>, "src-committers@freebsd.org" <src-committers@freebsd.org>
Subject:   Re: svn commit: r284198 - head/bin/ls
Message-ID:  <557DCBED.2010804@fastmail.net>
In-Reply-To: <20150614171031.GA5857@troutmask.apl.washington.edu>
References:  <201506100127.t5A1RdX6051959@svn.freebsd.org> <20150612204309.11dd3391@kan> <20150613024916.GA98218@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> <1434208622.1415.57.camel@freebsd.org> <C88CB169-12FE-4692-92AA-5C7D41BB61DF@FreeBSD.org> <557C661F.8080104@freebsd.org> <860017ED-D754-450C-865D-2D81A30C2212@xcllnt.net> <CAG=rPVd93Q18aYnSGSf_QH4C08RCq5wsdKQSNYTgWQ2huTbUHQ@mail.gmail.com> <20150614100045.GF58397@zxy.spb.ru> <557D55CB.5050009@fastmail.net> <20150614171031.GA5857@troutmask.apl.washington.edu>

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On 14/06/2015 18:10, Steve Kargl wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 11:22:03AM +0100, Bruce Simpson wrote:
>>
>> But I have yet to see a coherent argument here -- size(1) numbers, RSS
>> figures etc. -- about how it allegedly adds bloat. Most of what I've
>> seen so far is POLA, NIH resistance, and hand-wavery.
>>
>
> It is not alleged.  I actaully measured the bloat libxo
> caused when w(1) was converted.
...
> Here's the bloat with ls(1)
...

Steve, that's still less than one 4KB page.

OK, so I find it difficult to believe -- in this day and age of 
pipeline-saving CMOV instructions -- that the overhead is as large as 
~2800 bytes, where I would have expected roughly half that.

But not knowing what compile options you used, or having information 
about sizes (and working sets - just listing file sizes is hand waving) 
across the libxo modified binaries, this still doesn't give a complete 
picture of the relative cost of the feature.

However, that's still a very modest increase, considering the 
architectural scope of the libxo change and what it provides.

Warner suggests that for some targets it is too much, and he might have 
a point. But if you look at That Other Operating System, this is 
generally dealt with there by deploying something like BusyBox instead.

I can understand why we don't want to go down that road -- in my 
experience, the choice of BusyBox sacrifices too much usability -- and 
would support a WITH_LIBXO for that reason alone. The extra bytes might 
even disappear in the noise after crunchgen.

I think it is also fair that the people who advocated for this in the 
beginning (not I, though I support it in principle) and did the work 
(not I either, ENOTIME) should have done this work up front. I've had to 
do it to justify similar changes in other projects.



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