Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 10:13:59 -0400 From: Bart Silverstrim <bsilver@chrononomicon.com> To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE! Message-ID: <2fadfa1b1141e5cfd52d21bf702dcbbe@chrononomicon.com> In-Reply-To: <1305875013.20050506203538@wanadoo.fr> References: <20050506105722.099954BEAD@ws1-1.us4.outblaze.com> <94a56a65c9550600c114e053bc08456f@chrononomicon.com> <1305875013.20050506203538@wanadoo.fr>
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On May 6, 2005, at 2:35 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote: > Bart Silverstrim writes: > >> A) You sent messages to unknown hundreds or thousands of people on the >> mailing list, all of which could have a cached copy of your messages, >> and now wonder about privacy? > > I've explained the differences before; perhaps I need to explain them > again. > > When you sign up to a mailing list, you implicitly give permission to > distribute your posts to other members of the list. You do _not_ give > permission to have your posts archived, and you do _not_ give > permission > to have your posts published and made accessible to people who are not > on the list. The point is privacy. You complain at a lack of privacy after sending messages to an unknown number of strangers to begin with. And because it's a technical forum, anyone who spends ten minutes of research after wondering about it will know about the archives, especially since the defacto answer for some on this list is READ THE ARCHIVES. It ranks right up there with "READ THE HANDBOOK". If you don't like it, unsubscribe and chalk it up to experience. Otherwise, you're just trolling or bitching to bitch about something. This falls under fair use. And it's just idiotic to send messages to all these anonymous people only later to complain about privacy loss. You're sending information to strangers over a mailing list. Is there something wrong with you? Your issue isn't archiving and searchability...this isn't a chatlist. Anyone who does even a HINT of looking around before belching a question to the list knows about the mailing list archives. What did you THINK was going to happen? That your posts wouldn't get put into the archives because you're special? Let's see...www.freebsd.org...mailing lists...It says, clear as day, "Before posting to any list, please learn about how to best use the mailing lists, such as how to help avoid frequently-repeated discussions, by reading the Mailing List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) document." From there, it has as a QUESTION are the ARCHIVES AVAILABLE. YES. It gives the link. The entire tone of the document talks of openness and sharing. WHY WOULDN'T THAT MEAN IT IS SEARCHABLE BY SEARCH ENGINES?? It's supposed to give answers to people's questions on the OS. Apparently you seem to think this is some kind of shadow cabal that conspires to keep noobs out of the ivory towers, implied by your "I want to ask people to volunteer their time to help me with my questions but DON'T TELL ANYONE I didn't know the answer in the future" type of attitude you're conveying. Hmm...could it be that people aren't actually taking five minutes to read material before barreling through and belching the question on the forefront of their mind? Hmm... >> B) The archives are searchable and referenced, and you claim you >> didn't >> know that despite the number of self appointed upper-echelons that >> reply with a curt "Look in the archives" type answer? > > It has to be part of the confirmation process. You have to require > that > members accept these terms in order to subscribe. Are you daft? How many people read the EULA on the software they think they own? You honestly think they're going to read some "legalese" disclaimer on a subscription list? People are volunteering their time and experience to help people out here. Above, I outlined the process you get to sign up to a mailing list right from the FreeBSD list. Any idiot could have found it if they can read English. It stated the answers to this right there. In fact, if you follow the directions and actually read the material it told you to, it stated the material there that your messages would get archived. On top of that, it's a technical mailing list. It's IMPLIED, if you have been a sysadmin or technologist for more than a month and on the Internet as a sysadmin for more than a month. You should KNOW this by then. > Do you really think that software companies and major Web sites have > those little check boxes that say "I accept" just for decoration? You mean opt-ins? Those are the only ones I've run across. Check boxes for EULAs or agreements that the vast majority of people don't bloody READ because it is full of legalese. It's questionable now if EULAs are even fully enforceable. One company put in a reward if you read their EULA and told them you found the monetary reward part. It took months for someone to notice it. I just outlined the follow-the-lines for signing up for the mailing list...you know, the links that tell you to check the FAQ first, where it tells you about the archives? Obviously you didn't read it or didn't comprehend it to now complain that your messages are archived. >> C) Your words are being re-mirrored by being embedded inside other >> posts that REPLY to your messages. You honestly think that a >> volunteer >> is going to delete your messages AND all messages referencing your >> name? > > You don't need a volunteer, you just need software to do it. And it's > not hard to write. Really? If it's that easy to do so, why don't you write some software to re-format email so it's not top-posted? I'd love to find that material. Because you don't have the right to delete other people's words when replying to your message. But then you're also altering the work of that person's work by deleting, selectively, the material you don't want in there. >> There should be. We'll call it The Law of Common Sense. > > The law of common sense says that you don't agree to anything that > isn't > in writing and does not proceed _inevitably_ from that to which you > agree. Archives and publication are not inevitable consequences of > being on a mailing list, therefore you must agree to them explicitly. Guess you should have looked right at the material presented before signing up. It was all there. Every list I've been on for tech has had searchable archives. Even USENET is archived. Even web pages are archived. You put it out in public, it's fair game. No one is stealing your copyright, it's not robbing you of income, and no one is claiming your words as their own or making a profit from it. It is not common sense to require every aspect of your life be legally entitled and bound by terms and agreements. It's attitudes like that that spawn those asinine warning labels found on every damn product out there in America now. "It didn't tell me that my little boy couldn't fly after putting on a Superman costume! How was little innocent me supposed to know that?" >> None on the list that I know of is actively digging into your >> background or prying more secrets from you regarding your personal >> information ... > > What makes you think they would notify you if they were? Would you like to borrow my tin foil beanie, or are you afraid I have an RFID mounted on the back of it? >> The way the Internet works isn't a secret. > > This policy is not "the way the Internet works." Ooh, please do inform us how it works out there for "normal mailing lists", since the "Way the Internet works" is, I agree, too vague for you. I seem to be routinely running into this as the routine way tech lists work...you sign up, you post, you get lots of people saying read the damn archives, in some lists they point to some bible of sorts like the Handbook for the FreeBSD lists. That alone implies your messages are archived, no? What, you didn't take five minutes to do a google or archive search before belching your questions to the list?? Gee, I wonder why listmoms get frustrated. You couldn't be bothered to actually search for an answer before imposing your time on a volunteer on the list? Maybe the archiving is a price you pay for laziness. Because it was NEVER HIDDEN from you. This wasn't a surprise someone was waiting to spring on you. So I guess you'll have to deal with it!
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