Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2013 01:00:31 -0500 From: Isaac (.ike) Levy <ike@blackskyresearch.net> To: Warren Block <wblock@wonkity.com> Cc: Glen Barber <gjb@FreeBSD.org>, freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: removing CVS in Handbook Updating and Upgrading chapter Message-ID: <1359525661-4532257.3038972.fr0U60Vxv009157@rs149.luxsci.com> In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1301271412080.9759@wonkity.com> References: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1301241510470.86451@wonkity.com> <alpine.GSO.1.10.1301251321400.9389@multics.mit.edu> <alpine.BSF.2.00.1301251154450.5025@wonkity.com> <1359241802-3572135.75152325.fr0QN9mrI032137@rs149.luxsci.com> <alpine.BSF.2.00.1301261808410.2537@wonkity.com> <1359270722-3962523.11114096.fr0R7BNq4003267@rs149.luxsci.com> <20130127072036.GL1423@glenbarber.us> <1359272102-5757022.21162222.fr0R7YAiH011169@rs149.luxsci.com> <alpine.BSF.2.00.1301271232560.9759@wonkity.com> <1359319922-4118699.16248077.fr0RKpjZd021871@rs149.luxsci.com> <alpine.BSF.2.00.1301271412080.9759@wonkity.com>
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Guys, I'm very embarrassed, I meant to send this but hid the window in = my dock instead. (skip to end to avoid continuing the same conversation- long story = short, I concede your plan is good) On Jan 27, 2013, at 5:16 PM, Warren Block wrote: > On Sun, 27 Jan 2013, Isaac (.ike) Levy wrote: >> Warren, I owe you and Glen a drink for dealing with this exasperating = thread. >> I wouldn't continue if I didn't believe new users first installs are = extremely important, >=20 > Me either. Although I don't understand why new users would csup = -STABLE or -CURRENT on their first installs=85 I'm with you- SVN there! >=20 >> On Jan 27, 2013, at 3:15 PM, Warren Block wrote: >>>=20 >>> Say we leave CVS references in this chapter, and CVS for source goes = away in (for example) six months. Anyone who starts using CVS in that = time will be forced to switch. And they would be justifiably upset, = because they were offered an option that was going away. >>=20 >> I can totally agree, all *CVS* verbiage can be removed from the doc. >=20 > By CVS, I mean the application itself and the special-case programs = that use it, like csup and cvsup. Enthusiastic +1, raze it it in doc. >=20 >>> My personal feeling is that continuing to suggest CVS for -STABLE or = -CURRENT, even with a deprecation warning, is a disservice to those = users. >>=20 >> I can certainly see that point. cusp(1) has a man page, config = files, etc? it's pretty self-evident to admins who want to use it. >>=20 >> -- >> However, the one place where people are getting tripped up, is the = quick fetch required before buildworld/buildkernel: >>=20 >> I see nothing but benefit leaving one line before the = buildworld/makeworld dance: >> # csup /usr/share/examples/standard-supfile >=20 > But that's not in there now. The sections about updating source are = separate from the buildworld section. And the cvsup/csup part is not = one line, because it goes into details about editing the supfile. Which = must be done before running that single line, because the example = doesn't work as-is. Good point on default config- Muscle memory has me doing this in my = sleep, # cvsup -h cvsup14.us.freebsd.org /usr/share/examples/standard-supfile >=20 >> And one more line after that, >> "cvsup/csup(1) has been deprecated, and will be end-of-lifed when the = replacement is completed in base" >=20 > Followed by "Do not use this, because it will go away permanently = soon. In fact, it was kind of a mistake to mention it at all, because = it's just going to cause you trouble. Stop using cvs, cvsup, and csup. = They don't care about you, they're just using you. The sooner you quit, = the better for everyone. Seriously, it's over, if you use CVS now = you'll just have to switch to something else in a little while anyway. = Pick something else. You can use svn for development versions or = portsnap or tar downloads for releases. Pick anything else, we implore = you. Really, stop using CVS now, right now. We implore you, stop using = that thing we suggested. If we could take it back, we would. Looking = back fills us with sorrow and regret. In fact, we're going to = retroactively declare that we never said it, and sent you in the right = direction in the first place. We're so sorry. Please forgive us." Ha- well, I see your point, (except I don't see how bad it is because it = works pretty darned well). The alternative, to me, is equally frustrating for a new user: pkg add cvsup, (watch while pkg itself apologizes on it's way to = installing itself), whops, just installed pkg? Yeah- no binary packages = right now, come back another day. now, download ports tree, learn portsnap, (and the few tools like = pkg_info which are still *sortof* required to work with ports). Now, install SVN- dependencies and all. Now, svn to /usr/src, except whops- what happens if you installed src it = with boot media? svn complains- new to svn? Figure that out, and = muster up the courage to rm or mv /usr/src >=20 >> It's a lot simpler than leading them down the SVN setup path, the = state it's in today! >=20 > svn has to be installed from ports... but so did cvsup, and it had = large dependencies, Correct- Perl was a cvsup dependency, that's way bigger than SVN, > and people still use it. svn setup is simpler than cvsup or csup--no = supfile, it's just URLs. >=20 > But again, those are arguments against deprecating CVS, not against = removing it from the documentation. =20 Indeed- lets not touch that on doc list. > That head has crashed on the platter, the swallow has dropped the = coconut, the anti-increment has impacted the impeller. 10-4 on that. -- Cool- we understand each other- you call it, I'll stand behind you on = it. Enough of both of our time used- this transition problem has no ideal = solution in documentation. Even though I disagree with the tactic, the spirit of your approach is = awesome (and cvsup serving src won't be alive for too long), we'll all = only have to deal with this transition mess for (n) months more, = (hopefully n<6). In the meantime, hope to buy you a beer. /salute Best, .ike
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