Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 22:11:21 -0000 From: "Samantha Hamon" <samanthahamon@hotmail.com> To: dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au, stuyman@confusion.net Cc: lhsmith@cfl.rr.com, jeho5791@student.uu.se, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, b.j.smith@ieee.org, thebs@theseus.com, monster@okb.lv Subject: Re: About Unix <- Doug needs a good rebuking Message-ID: <F2158ARf3sllNY30kkZ00004427@hotmail.com>
next in thread | raw e-mail | index | archive | help
ya, ya, ya... threads like this make me soooo "thankful" I am still on this valuable mailing list. Thanks. >From: "Doug Young" <dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au> >To: "Laurence Berland" <stuyman@confusion.net> >CC: <lhsmith@cfl.rr.com>, "Jesper Holmberg" <jeho5791@student.uu.se>, ><freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG>, <b.j.smith@ieee.org>, <thebs@theseus.com>, >"Denis J. Cirulis" <monster@okb.lv> >Subject: Re: About Unix <- Doug needs a good rebuking >Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 07:52:29 +1000 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from mx2.freebsd.org (mx2.freebsd.org [216.136.204.119])by >mail.bendnet.com (8.11.2/8.11.2/BendNet) with ESMTP id f29LqWf08690for ><samantha@bendnet.com>; Fri, 9 Mar 2001 13:52:32 -0800 (PST) >Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.freebsd.org [216.136.204.18])by >mx2.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPid 7D7F0557BA; Fri, 9 Mar 2001 >13:52:18 -0800 (PST)(envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG) >Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 538)id 46FE537B719; Fri, > 9 Mar 2001 13:52:29 -0800 (PST) >Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])by hub.freebsd.org >(Postfix) with SMTPid 32B7B2E8166; Fri, 9 Mar 2001 13:52:29 -0800 >(PST)(envelope-from owner-freebsd-newbies) >Received: by hub.freebsd.org (bulk_mailer v1.12); Fri, 9 Mar 2001 13:52:29 >-0800 >Received: from goblin.apana.org.au (goblin.apana.org.au [203.3.126.3])by >hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A46437B718for ><freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG>; Fri, 9 Mar 2001 13:52:21 -0800 >(PST)(envelope-from dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au) >Received: (from uucp@localhost)by goblin.apana.org.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id >HAA24812;Sat, 10 Mar 2001 07:51:42 +1000 (EST)(envelope-from >dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au) >Received: from bryden.apana.org.au(203.3.126.129), claiming to be >"roadrunner" via SMTP by goblin.apana.org.au, id smtpdv24810; Sat Mar 10 >07:51:37 2001 >Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG> >Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org >Message-ID: <015101c0a8e3$3e8f5fc0$0200a8c0@apana.org.au> >References: <OFA420CC63.6AEAEDB6-ON87256A08.006994B1@smed.com> ><01030800251100.00557@r55h47.res.gatech.edu> ><20010308115639.A4298@strindberg.maisel.enst-bretagne.fr> ><022801c0a7c0$024f8860$847e03cb@apana.org.au> ><3AA79277.32455314@cfl.rr.com> <028b01c0a7e >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 >Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG >X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Precedence: bulk >Status: > >The situation here that resulted in a move of all systems previously >running >linux over to BSD > >(a) an all volunteer organization (few people to do stuff) >(b) remotely hosted systems (can take some days before anyone gets there) >(c) continual power failures (occupational hazard in parts of OZ) >(d) lack of UPS & inability to acquire such a beast (committees etc) >(e) repeated problems with linux O/Ses after power cuts (they just got >badly >broken) > >At this point items (a) to (d) are unchanged, all remote systems now have >some version of BSD, >and we no longer have a downtime issue. If people wish to argue about the >technicalities then so be it ... we don't have the problem anymore so thats >all that mattered here. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Laurence Berland" <stuyman@confusion.net> >To: "Doug Young" <dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au> >Cc: <lhsmith@cfl.rr.com>; "Jesper Holmberg" <jeho5791@student.uu.se>; ><freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG>; <b.j.smith@ieee.org>; <thebs@theseus.com>; >"Denis J. Cirulis" <monster@okb.lv> >Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 6:47 PM >Subject: Re: About Unix <- Doug needs a good rebuking > > > > I'm not going to really get involved with this, but let me share a > > little anecdotal evidence. A few times, just to see what would happen, > > I pulled the power cord for a power strip that contained not one, not > > two, not three, but ten Linux servers. Nine came up without problems. > > The tenth needed a little help with the fsck. I've done this sort of > > thing more than once, and I'd rate 1 in 10 as a reasonable rate. Never > > did I need to reinstall. FreeBSD had better results, 1 in 100 or so. > > Also, no reinstalls. Both systems may need a reinstall on very very > > rare occasions, so rare I've never seen it happen. You'd have to hose > > the system very badly. It's all pretty reliable. Let's not become the > > FUD spreaders here. > > > > Needing sleep, writing papers at 3 am, wishing I wasnt, > > Laurence > > > > http://www.isp.northwestern.edu/~laurence > > > > Doug Young wrote: > > > > > > My point remains .... our FreeBSD systems invariably recover after a >power > > > failure, the previous linux ones rarely did. Given the difficulty in >getting > > > to the remote systems thats more than sufficient justification for the >move > > > from linux to FreeBSD. We'd never consider running any form of Windows >on > > > remote systems ... we do have some Win2000 boxes but they are all kept >close > > > to home where they can get a hug when needed. In comparison the FreeSD >boxes > > > typically run for about a year before upgrade, the linux ones lasted >maybe > > > two months at best, and the (local) Win2000 systems probably get 6 >months > > > between re-installs. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Lourdes H. Smith" <lhsmith@cfl.rr.com> > > > To: "Doug Young" <dougy@gargoyle.apana.org.au> > > > Cc: "Jesper Holmberg" <jeho5791@student.uu.se>; > > > <freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG>; <b.j.smith@ieee.org>; ><thebs@theseus.com>; > > > "Denis J. Cirulis" <monster@okb.lv> > > > Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 12:08 AM > > > Subject: Re: About Unix <- Doug needs a good rebuking > > > > > > > Re: About Unix <- Doug needs a good rebuking > > > > > > > > Lourdes' husband here -- > > > > > > > > Okay Doug, you are so full of crap, my wife came to me with > > > > questions based on your misinformation. That's sad. Learn the > > > > systems and only talk about _what_you_know_! I rebuke your comments > > > > below. The key here is _technical_facts_. Now if you want to talk > > > > about those, come to ELUG (http://www.elug.org). We cater to all > > > > OSS (Open Source Software) users. > > > > > > > > Doug Young wrote: > > > > > Try the following on both a linux & a BSD system > > > > > setup two identical systems,one with linux & other with BSD > > > > > give them both a few jobs to do, then hit the "reset" button > > > > > (you do have power failures in Sweden don't you ??) > > > > > invariably the BSD system will recover with no damage but > > > > > the linux one will need a total re-install > > > > > > > > I have maintained over 100 production Linux systems over the years > > > > (since 1995 on corporate networks). I have never, ever had to > > > > re-install. Same goes for BSD (which I've used limitedly since 1995 > > > > as well). [ Side note: I've been an NT administrator even longer > > > > (1992-1999), and re-installs are a fact of life (not as bad as Win9x > > > > -- but I find NTFS will destroy itself after 2-3 years of good use > > > > when it "assumes" a journal flush is good). ] > > > > > > > > Now I know you are _trying_ to "stress" the fact that most Linux > > > > distributions don't come with a "journaling filesystem", but the > > > > default, Linux Ext2 filesystem is quite a reliable filesystem, > > > > despite its simplicity. In fact, of all the major UFS (UNIX > > > > Filesystems), it fragments the least (although fragmentation on any > > > > UFS not even close to being as bad as any Windows OS). > > > > > > > > > We did have exclusively linux in our servers but since the >changeover to > > > > > FreeBSD the uptimes have increased to the point where machines > > > > > generally keep going constantly from one upgrade til the next ... > > > usually > > > > > a year or so later. The Redhat / Slackware / Debian systems rarely >went > > > > > for a month before something or other broke. We do have the odd >Win2000 > > > > > Server system (required for certain software applications) & their > > > uptime > > > > > is generally superior to linux ..... no comparison with BSD >though. > > > > > > > > Everyone's going to have their own comments. My main Linux-based > > > > Samba-NFS file server (which also does mail, CVS and everything else > > > > under the sun) for over 50 NT, Solaris and Linux clients is running > > > > RedHat 6.2 with kernel 2.2.16+Ext3+NFS3. Crash recovery times are > > > > <<5 minutes -- but I've only seen that happen once. It stays up > > > > forever (until stupid Florida Power goes down). > > > > > > > > "Denis J. Cirulis" wrote: > > > > > I don't want to claim BSD or Linux, I must say I'm using both BSD > > > > > and Linux about 5 years. > > > > > > > > Same boat. No bigotry. > > > > > > > > > You're wrong about power failures: first you can switch to > > > > > ReiserFS and after power failure you wouldn't be asked to do > > > > > fsck. Journaling FS rocks, but I haven't seen any for FreeBSD. > > > > > > > > ReiserFS has issues as an NFS server. Regardless, I have extensive > > > > knowledge of Ext3 on *PRODUCTION* systems. I'm also moving into > > > > using XFS (I repackage their kernels from CVS in RPM format) since > > > > Ext3 doesn't run on 2.4. XFS is a pretty advanced system. > > > > > > > > I recently did a presentation on Linux JFS options (focus on Ext3 > > > > and XFS). You can find it here: > > > > > > > > >http://www.smithconcepts.com/files/presentations/ELUG_JFS_2001Mar05a.pdf > > > > > > > > > One I must say that *BSD under heavy load are more powerfull. > > > > > > > > That's the power of its mature VM and scheduler systems. Linux is > > > > getting there. Linux 2.4 really improves _a_lot_. Linus is getting > > > > good at balancing simplicity and single-user performance against > > > > server/multiuser performance. > > > > > > > > -- Bryan "TheBS" Smith > > > > Engineering/SysAdmin, Theseus Logic, Inc. > > > > Contributing Author, "Samba Unleashed" > > > > [ Note: One chapter was the "Samba Unleashed" appendix on BSD > > > > ;-P ] > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > > > > -- > > Laurence Berland > > Intern, Flooz.com > > Northwestern '04 > > stuyman@confusion.net > > http://www.isp.northwestern.edu/~laurence > > > > "The world has turned and left me here" > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message
Want to link to this message? Use this URL: <https://mail-archive.FreeBSD.org/cgi/mid.cgi?F2158ARf3sllNY30kkZ00004427>