Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2023 11:04:15 +0100 From: Miguel C <miguelmclara@gmail.com> To: Paul Pathiakis <pathiaki2@yahoo.com> Cc: Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com>, Alejandro Imass <aimass@yabarana.com>, "Steve O'Hara-Smith" <steve@sohara.org>, Tim Preston <tim@timpreston.net>, freebsd-questions <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Docker Message-ID: <CADGo8CW4m%2B9_GWS2QimR-9aKxgKKJFs0uAUrXrzA%2Bm3cyWkFZg@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <543289768.3317542.1681394425362@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <CA%2B1FSij9j922Nvv1Vhn43HznwpyGT99UZsU674G9hHWzR=UhvQ@mail.gmail.com> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <CA%2B1FSijc%2B-OLNsyFNdR=jP3VzMi4zUE92i5iv9Pfg6AryDy_KQ@mail.gmail.com> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <CA%2B1FSihVrJ8cZ4ZU6mMr0sKJsZ98V4fh2vpDLugw7MGj-%2BEBPg@mail.gmail.com> <CA%2B1FSijL50mQ-HveBA4HZeNkSoaORv=aty-15nNLzn9amzY_nw@mail.gmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <CA%2B1FSigV_pPwVW%2BDd8WZYGcNQVt7%2BYOcsnJFoRhS6jL5A636pg@mail.gmail.com> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <CA%2B1FSihVPCQ6tp8u=aqnLyyOPpCMrnhYGcC8bCUgRbFHTdY5sA@mail.gmail.com> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <CAHieY7RFe0P85twcs1NiiAvTTr4oGPJEtXEkufsXswQt3ECGvg@mail.gmail.com> <CA%2B1FSiiCG-iugAbSoNC2r5WXCJvgi6pj3jG74jCwukhNtb_XGA@mail.gmail.com> <CADGo8CXsCYCOi%2Bwk2ED7zpJdFQDhynzD0u1qFDUFS3RveS8wOg@mail.gmail.com> <CA%2B1FSij3VXqsGs5ZTUv%2B9Q2wJ18yCqVqgHAyGfCWc0C%2Bxi=KXw@mail.gmail.com> <543289768.3317542.1681394425362@mail.yahoo.com>
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--0000000000006c616605f9855268 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 3:00=E2=80=AFPM Paul Pathiakis <pathiaki2@yahoo.com= > wrote: > I guess my opinion at this point is to drop this. I don't see a valid > point for diverting resources and various other things to accommodate > 'docker' or many other things that are dependent on 'linuxisms'. Where > does it stop? Do we start porting everything from Windows as well? My > point is there are many things in many OSes and variants thereof, that ha= ve > hooks into proprietary parts of the kernel that are not 'modular'. By > modular, I mean that they can be compiled and used on another OS like mos= t > things in the ports/pkgs system. Since this is 'kernel' level, I don't > think FreeBSD should pursue such an endeavor with the limited resources a= t > hand. The FreeBSD kernel and userland are a thing of beauty and refineme= nt > imho. All I have to do is look at the CVE database to see that in the la= st > 10 years there only a couple of hundred bugs. Just the linux KERNEL has > 1000s as does windows. I would worry that anything that had ties into th= e > Linux kernel is probably an issue waiting to happen. > > I've been doing system administration and system architecture for over 35 > years... When people ask what the dominant *nix OS is and are expecting > Linux.... It starts us down the road of all the big boys use FreeBSD > because they can't afford to have constant patching and vulnerabilities. > > So, it's either in a hypervisor and we go from there or drop it. The > amount of time spent on this discussion is becoming 'trollish' > I agree with this ofc, which is why I suggested an option rather than actually trolling and calling the person a troll like others did. And bhyve is just and option there are other supported virtualization solutions, I have in fact run docker in virtualbox long ago... spoiler performance is horrible, and again as I stated its nice to pull an image or to for testing it will never be the same. > > Paul > > On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 08:23:35 AM GMT-5, Mario Marietto < > marietto2008@gmail.com> wrote: > > > ---> Couldn't we just run docker on bhyve? > > more no than yes. You could try to put yourself in other people's shoes. > You are only moving the problem. You are indirectly asking the users that > come from another system to learn bhyve if they want to use docker. Why > should they learn something different to just use what they need ? At thi= s > point they could jump directly to learn jails,instead of bhyve and / or > docker. To learn something different requires time,energy,etc. This is no= t > a good business card for the new users. And it implicitly admits that a > useful and popular tool like docker doesn't work on an efficient operatin= g > system like FreeBSD. Yes there are great tools like docker for freebsd, > but those users don't need it, they just want docker. Maybe they don't ev= en > need to learn bhyve. Just Docker. Your reasoning is typical of someone > who has been using freebsd for some time, you don't think like those user= s > who would like to adopt it and are evaluating the pros and cons. Take als= o > in consideration that running bhyve to run Docker is a waste of resources > on the machine,if I want to run only Docker,because in a normal situation= ,I > shouldn't have the need to use bhyve. Users that have already boarded > FreeBSD have probably already come to appreciate jails and many of them > don't need to run bhyve to get docker. Remember the focus of my > argumentation : it is something like this : I offer a native implementati= on > of docker on FreeBSD and I use it as bait to attract more users. And > between those users maybe there will be also good developers that will lo= ve > FreeBSD even for different reasons than docker. The ultimate goal is to > make freebsd a little more attractive to the industry, because as far as = I > read, it's slowly disappearing. > I understand what you are saying, but I think I was misunderstood or didn't make myself super clear, so let me clarify, I also believe the effort on something like this being actively supported in FreeBSD would be huge, and also will never be a priority for the FreeBSD foundation even if it was to drive adoption (this is my personal opinion nothing more, my reasoning is that I've never seen FreeBSD invest on something purely to drive adoption, or at last not as the main goal) There are other virt solutions (virtualbox ie.), I suggested byhve because IMHO it's not that hard and when I said "It shouldn't be complicated" I should have provided more detail, it is actually easy to start a Linux VM, folks coming from linux are familiar with terminal unlike on Windows, the documentation gives examples, there are a few threads on this too... and well, you even have ChatGPT so if you really struggling you can ask the cmds to start a linux VM with bhyve, but again there are other solutions, like virtualbox, this I have tried in FreeBSD, and in fact on macOS too, there are folks also doing this, because docker desktop is paid for non-personal use or small business (some fear they might make this more restrictive soon), and without docker desktop you will have the same problems as FreeBSD on macOS... (see: https://medium.com/pictet-technologies-blog/replace-docker-desktop-on-macos= -with-vagrant-and-virtual-box-c93d6ac240e1 ) Also, when I'm saying I never tried it myself and was immediately trolled let me also clarify, the fact that you never tried a specific use case doesn't mean you can't say it should be hard, because I was speaking about starting a bhyve VM, this is something I tried, its documented and if this is hard for a person familiar with Linux then I dare say that person is not actually familiar with Linux, if so running commands in the terminal based on examples should be trivial... now running docker cmds inside a *bhyve* VM is not something I tried sure and I did say there are likely going to be limitations, I have however never trying to install docker un then run it inside a bhyve VM, I have on VirtualBox though. Hopefully I was a bit more clear now. Unlike you Paul that actually provided a great response to my comments with logical reasoning, what I often see here is that rather than helping or explaining things some people are full of attitude don't even reply to the main question, and they are in fact the actual trolls, sadly this is just how the internet his, there a lot more people trying to make themselves feel superior, than people helping. I mean, if you have nothing of value to had but sarcasm and trolling, just don't reply. Anyway the original question is about docker, and I do believe the only option you have at this point Mario if you really want to invest time on it is virtualization, and again this is exactly how its done in macOS and Widows, the difference there is that the actual Docker developers support it with Docker Desktop, and have actually done some work on performance, and ofc some of the setup hurdles are handled by the software... like the storage part etc. Perhaps if there are many folks wanting this the best way is to ask for it on Docker forums (its been asked actually but by very few people). Btw Mario, as others said FreeBSD has the "jails" system, and I've actually looked into a project that tries to implement some docker concepts using jails : https://github.com/sadaszewski/focker ( Idk if others have mentioned it as I have not read all the replies, sorry if that is the case) I have used it before just for testing, back in v1 still, and totally forgot about it, but it might be something to look into as well Mario, keep in mind that it's a single dev effort, but it does support orchestration tools, you can use "Dockerfile" like files and docker build, re-use images etc so it might be easier for you than bhyve.. as even the commands are similar. And Mario, I understand the frustration I faced the same but in reverse, because I actually started with unix-like systems (including the BSDs ofc) and then started to use Linux for work related reasons, many times I simply had to adapt to the "linux way", it's just how things are, but it's also true that "voice" makes a difference... A lot of people wanted ZFS on Linux... and It's now a reality. I'm going to drop this thread because I have nothing else to offer. P.S. Sorry for any typo I typed this fast and don't have time to review Best to all. On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 2:59=E2=80=AFPM Miguel C <miguelmclara@gmail.com> w= rote: 100% Agree with this, and the fact is there have been cases where there is that tolerance and there are maintainers making efforts to bring "linux" things to freeBSD even if via linux emulation. Docker has been mentioned many times in mailing lists and forums and there is always comments like "but why jails are much better" etc, sometimes not only intolerant but rude reply that serve only to drive people away IMHO. I also don't get why is that so complicated, is it just cause FreeBSD's maintainers/community don't want to even consider docker on FreeBSD? Couldn't we just run docker on bhyve? I'm sure it would serve the "just want to test this image purpose" but I suspect there will be some issues with Filesytem/network, not issues per say, but more like it likely takes some work to get this to run in easy manner, but I think I've seen mentions of using sshfs or zvols to make this part easier. MacOS and Windows use virtualization anyway, sure Docker "DESKTOP" is supported but docker, but they are still using a VM at the end of the day and handle the filesystem/network stuff for the user. I've never tried this my self but I don't think it should be that super complicated unless you plan to run docker on prod envs, I think here, the argument that "right tool for the job" is very valid.... I use docker on my macOS but I'm not going to run things in prod in macbooks ofc, I will still use Linux, K8s etc. Perhaps the FreeBSD foundation could invest a bit in getting a tool to easy the way of running docker through bhyve, I do believe this would be good for user adoption, but probably there are other priorities. On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 12:32=E2=80=AFPM Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail= .com> wrote: The point of my argumentation is not if FreeBSD has or not good tools for containerizing and securing applications. It has. Point is that the users that don't know FreeBSD are tied to their own tools and rarely want to change them. Almost everyone wants to change. But trying,experimenting and changing something in the workflow is important,because every tool has bad and good sides. There are many docker images already to be used on the net and this will save a lot of time and effort and money for a lot of people. This is a fact. And I think that it happened because Docker is...good. FreeBSD has tools like docker,but the mass production of containerized images never happened. So,would we ask ourselves the reason ? Maybe something has not gone well. I use Linux and FreeBSD and I "love" both these systems. Linux has a larger user base than FreeBSD. A larger user base may mean more innovations in a small time,a faster bug correction and so on. I think that mostly advantages from the implementation of docker on FreeBSD will come from the user base. Mostly for those users that come from linux or other OS and that already use docker and kubernetes. I don't think those users are a small number. Those users could jump to FreeBSD if Docker / Kubernetes are implemented in FreeBSD. This could be the straw that broke the camel's back. You argue that the jails are working already great and that they should use them. I argue that the freebsd community could have a more tolerant behavior to the users that could jump to the FreeBSD world and they should not force them to learn only new technologies at first. To have some important tools which work on multiple systems means having a good business card. So,in the end I ask to myself and to you : FreeBSD needs to grow in terms of community ? Does it need to be populated by a bigger number of users that will come from another OS base community ? On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 10:17=E2=80=AFAM Alejandro Imass <aimass@yabarana.c= om> wrote: On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 4:28=E2=80=AFPM Paul Pathiakis <pathiaki2@yahoo.com= > wrote: I believe the simplest thing would be to wrap jails or iocage in an interface that looks like and behaves Docker-like. and Bastille! --=20 Mario. --=20 Mario. > --0000000000006c616605f9855268 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">= <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 3:00=E2=80=AF= PM Paul Pathiakis <<a href=3D"mailto:pathiaki2@yahoo.com" target=3D"_bla= nk">pathiaki2@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_= quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,= 204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvet= ica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div></div> <div dir=3D"ltr">I guess my opinion at this point is to drop this.= =C2=A0 I don't see a valid point for diverting resources and various ot= her things to accommodate 'docker' or many other things that are de= pendent on 'linuxisms'.=C2=A0 Where does it stop?=C2=A0 Do we start= porting everything from Windows as well?=C2=A0 My point is there are many = things in many OSes and variants thereof, that have hooks into proprietary = parts of the kernel that are not 'modular'.=C2=A0 By modular, I mea= n that they can be compiled and used on another OS like most things in the = ports/pkgs system.=C2=A0 Since this is 'kernel' level, I don't = think FreeBSD should pursue such an endeavor with the limited resources at = hand.=C2=A0 The FreeBSD kernel and userland are a thing of beauty and refin= ement imho.=C2=A0 All I have to do is look at the CVE database to see that = in the last 10 years there only a couple of hundred bugs.=C2=A0 Just the li= nux KERNEL has 1000s as does windows.=C2=A0 I would worry that anything tha= t had ties into the Linux kernel is probably an issue waiting to happen.</d= iv><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">I've been doing system a= dministration and system architecture for over 35 years...=C2=A0 When peopl= e ask what the dominant *nix OS is and are expecting Linux.... It starts us= down the road of all the big boys use FreeBSD because they can't affor= d to have constant patching and vulnerabilities.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>= </div><div dir=3D"ltr">So, it's either in a hypervisor and we go from t= here or drop it.=C2=A0 The amount of time spent on this discussion is becom= ing 'trollish'</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I = agree with this ofc, which is why I suggested an option rather than actuall= y trolling and calling the person a troll like others did.=C2=A0 And bhyve = is just and option there are other supported virtualization solutions, I ha= ve in fact run docker in virtualbox long ago... spoiler performance is horr= ible, and again as I stated its nice to pull an image or to for testing it = will never be the same.<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D= "margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-le= ft:1ex"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-= serif;font-size:13px"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Paul<br><= /div><div><br></div> =20 </div><div id=3D"m_-5875881122993762075m_7181173859103459207ydpa1dd= 3db9yahoo_quoted_1475940968"> <div style=3D"font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,= Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:rgb(38,40,42)"> =20 <div> On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 08:23:35 AM GMT-5, Mario= Marietto <<a href=3D"mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">m= arietto2008@gmail.com</a>> wrote: </div> <div><br></div> <div><br></div> <div><div id=3D"m_-5875881122993762075m_7181173859103459207= ydpa1dd3db9yiv6427533293"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>---> Couldn't w= e just run docker on bhyve?</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>more no= than yes.<span lang=3D"en"> You could try to put yourself in other people&= #39;s shoes. You are only moving the problem. You are indirectly asking the= users that come from another system to learn bhyve if they want to use doc= ker. Why should they learn something different to just use what they need ?= At this point they could jump directly to learn jails,instead of bhyve and= / or docker. To learn something different requires time,energy,etc. This i= s not a good business card for the new users. And</span><span lang=3D"en"> = it implicitly admits that a useful and popular tool like docker doesn't= work on an efficient operating system like FreeBSD.</span><span lang=3D"en= "> Yes there are great tools like docker for freebsd, but those users don&#= 39;t need it, they just want docker. Maybe they don't even need to lear= n bhyve. Just Docker. Your</span><span lang=3D"en"> reasoning is typical of= someone who has been using freebsd for some time, you don't think like= those users who would like to adopt it and are evaluating the pros and con= s. Take also in consideration that running bhyve to run Docker is a waste o= f resources on the machine,if I want to run only Docker,because in a normal= situation,I shouldn't have the need to use bhyve. Users that</span><sp= an lang=3D"en"> have already boarded FreeBSD have probably already come to = appreciate jails and many of them don't need to run bhyve to get docker= . Remember the focus of my argumentation : it is something like this : I of= fer a native implementation of docker on FreeBSD and I use it as bait to at= tract more users. And between those users maybe there will be also good dev= elopers that will love FreeBSD even for different reasons than docker. The = ultimate goal is to</span><span lang=3D"en"> make freebsd a little more att= ractive to the industry, because as far as I read, it's slowly disappea= ring.</span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><d= iv><br></div><div>I understand what you are saying, but I think I was misun= derstood or didn't make myself super clear, so let me clarify, I also b= elieve the effort on something like this being actively supported in FreeBS= D would be huge, and also will never be a priority for the FreeBSD foundati= on even if it was to drive adoption (this is my personal opinion nothing mo= re, my reasoning is that I've never seen FreeBSD invest on something pu= rely to drive adoption, or at last not as the main goal) <br></div><div><br= ></div><div>There are other=C2=A0 virt solutions (virtualbox ie.), I sugges= ted byhve because IMHO it's not that hard and when I said "It shou= ldn't be complicated" I should have provided more detail, it is ac= tually easy to start a Linux VM, folks coming from linux are familiar with = terminal unlike on Windows, the documentation gives examples, there are a f= ew threads on this too... and well, you even have ChatGPT so if you really = struggling you can ask the cmds to start a linux VM with bhyve, but again t= here are other solutions, like virtualbox, this I have tried in FreeBSD, an= d in fact on macOS too, there are folks also doing this, because docker des= ktop is paid for non-personal use or small business (some fear they might m= ake this more restrictive soon), and without docker desktop you will have t= he same problems as FreeBSD on macOS... (see: <a href=3D"https://medium.com= /pictet-technologies-blog/replace-docker-desktop-on-macos-with-vagrant-and-= virtual-box-c93d6ac240e1">https://medium.com/pictet-technologies-blog/repla= ce-docker-desktop-on-macos-with-vagrant-and-virtual-box-c93d6ac240e1</a>)</= div><div><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Also, when I'm saying I never tried= it myself and was immediately trolled let me also clarify, the fact that y= ou never tried a specific use case doesn't mean you can't say it sh= ould be hard, because I was speaking about starting a bhyve VM, this is som= ething I tried, its documented and if this is hard for a person familiar wi= th Linux then I dare say that person is not actually familiar with Linux, i= f so running commands in the terminal based on examples should be trivial..= . now running docker cmds inside a *bhyve* VM is not something I tried sure= and I did say there are likely going to be limitations, I have however nev= er trying to install docker un then run it inside a bhyve VM, I have on Vir= tualBox though. Hopefully I was a bit more clear now.<br></div><div dir=3D"= ltr"><br></div><div>Unlike you Paul that actually provided a great response= to my comments with logical reasoning, what I often see here is that rathe= r than helping or explaining things some people are full of attitude don= 9;t even reply to the main question, and they are in fact the actual trolls= , sadly this is just how the internet his, there a lot more people trying t= o make themselves feel superior, than people helping. I mean, if you have n= othing of value to had but sarcasm and trolling, just don't reply.<br><= /div><br></div><div>Anyway the original question is about docker, and I do = believe the only option you have at this point Mario if you really want to = invest time on it is virtualization, and again this is exactly how its done= in macOS and Widows, the difference there is that the actual Docker develo= pers support it with Docker Desktop, and have actually done some work on pe= rformance, and ofc some of the setup hurdles are handled by the software...= like the storage part etc. Perhaps if there are many folks wanting this th= e best way is to ask for it on Docker forums (its been asked actually but b= y very few people).</div><div><br></div><div>Btw Mario, as others said Free= BSD has the "jails" system, and I've actually looked into a p= roject that tries to implement some docker concepts using jails : <a href= =3D"https://github.com/sadaszewski/focker" target=3D"_blank">https://github= .com/sadaszewski/focker</a> ( Idk if others have mentioned it as I have not= read all the replies, sorry if that is the case)<br></div><div><br></div><= div>I have used it before just for testing, back in v1 still, and totally f= orgot about it, but it might be something to look into as well Mario, keep = in mind that it's a single dev effort, but it does support orchestratio= n tools, you can use "Dockerfile" like files and docker build, re= -use images etc so it might be easier for you than bhyve.. as even the comm= ands are similar.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>And Mario, I unde= rstand the frustration I faced the same but in reverse, because I actually = started with unix-like systems (including the BSDs ofc) and then started to= use Linux for work related reasons, many times I simply had to adapt to th= e "linux way", it's just how things are, but it's also tr= ue that "voice" makes a difference... A lot of people wanted ZFS = on Linux... and It's now a reality.<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></= div><div>I'm going to drop this thread because I have nothing else to o= ffer.</div><div><br></div><div>P.S. Sorry for any typo I typed this fast an= d don't have time to review <br></div><div><br></div><div>Best to all.<= br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div id=3D"m_-5875881122993762075m_7181173= 859103459207ydpa1dd3db9yiv6427533293yqt99158"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu,= Apr 13, 2023 at 2:59=E2=80=AFPM Miguel C <<a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mai= lto:miguelmclara@gmail.com" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">miguelmclara= @gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br clear=3D"none"></div><blockquote style=3D"marg= in:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1e= x"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>100% Agree with this, and the fact is th= ere have been cases where there is that tolerance and there are maintainers= making efforts to bring "linux" things to freeBSD even if via li= nux emulation.</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>Docker has been ment= ioned many times in mailing lists and forums and there is always comments l= ike "but why jails are much better" etc, sometimes not only intol= erant but rude reply that serve only to drive people away IMHO.</div><div><= br clear=3D"none"></div><div>I also don't get why is that so complicate= d, is it just cause FreeBSD's maintainers/community don't want to e= ven consider docker on FreeBSD? Couldn't we just run docker on bhyve? I= 'm sure it would serve the "just want to test this image purpose&q= uot; but I suspect there will be some issues with Filesytem/network, not is= sues per say, but more like it likely takes some work to get this to run in= easy manner, but I think I've seen mentions of using sshfs or zvols to= make this part easier.</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>MacOS and W= indows use virtualization anyway, sure Docker "DESKTOP" is suppor= ted but docker, but they are still using a VM at the end of the day and han= dle the filesystem/network stuff for the user.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear= =3D"none"></div><div>I've never tried this my self but I don't thin= k it should be that super complicated unless you plan to run docker on prod= envs, I think here, the argument that "right tool for the job" i= s very valid.... I use docker on my macOS but I'm not going to run thin= gs in prod in macbooks ofc, I will still use Linux, K8s etc.<br clear=3D"no= ne"></div><br clear=3D"none"></div>Perhaps the FreeBSD foundation could inv= est a bit in getting a tool to easy the way of running docker through bhyve= , I do believe this would be good for user adoption, but probably there are= other priorities.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div><br clea= r=3D"none"></div></div><br clear=3D"none"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Apr= 13, 2023 at 12:32=E2=80=AFPM Mario Marietto <<a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"= mailto:marietto2008@gmail.com" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">marietto2= 008@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br clear=3D"none"></div><blockquote style=3D"m= argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left= :1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>The point of my argumentation is not if FreeBSD= has or not good tools for containerizing and securing applications. It has= . Point is that the users that don't know FreeBSD are tied to their own= tools and rarely want to change them. Almost everyone wants to change. But= trying,experimenting and changing something in the workflow is important,b= ecause every tool has bad and good sides. There are many docker images alre= ady to be used on the net and this will save a lot of time and effort and m= oney for a lot of people. This is a fact. And I think that it happened beca= use Docker is...good. FreeBSD has tools like docker,but the mass production= of containerized images never happened. So,would we ask ourselves the reas= on ? Maybe something has not gone well. I use Linux and FreeBSD and I "= ;love" both these systems. Linux has a larger user base than FreeBSD. = A larger user base may mean more innovations in a small time,a faster bug c= orrection and so on. <br clear=3D"none"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div= ><div>I think that mostly advantages from the implementation of docker on F= reeBSD will come from the user base. Mostly=20 for those users that come from linux or other OS and that already use=20 docker and kubernetes. I don't think those users are a small number.=20 Those users could jump to FreeBSD if Docker / Kubernetes are implemented in FreeBSD. This could be the <span lang=3D"en">straw that broke the camel= 's back</span>. You argue that the jails are working already great and = that they should use them. I argue that the freebsd community could have a = more<span lang=3D"en"> tolerant behavior to the users that could jump to the FreeBSD world and th= ey should not force them to learn only new technologies at first. To have s= ome important tools which work on multiple systems means</span><span lang= =3D"en"> having a good business card.</span><span lang=3D"en"> So,in the=20 end I ask to myself and to you : FreeBSD needs to grow in terms of <span>co= mmunity</span> ? Does it need to be populated by a bigger number of users t= hat will come from another OS base <span>community</span> ? </span></div></= div><br clear=3D"none"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 10:17= =E2=80=AFAM Alejandro Imass <<a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:aimass@yab= arana.com" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">aimass@yabarana.com</a>> w= rote:<br clear=3D"none"></div><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex= ;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">= <div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><br clear=3D"none"><div><div dir= =3D"ltr">On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 4:28=E2=80=AFPM Paul Pathiakis <<a shap= e=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:pathiaki2@yahoo.com" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_= blank">pathiaki2@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br clear=3D"none"></div><blockquo= te style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)= ;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-seri= f;font-size:13px"> <div dir=3D"ltr">I believe the simplest thing would be to wrap jail= s or iocage in an interface that looks like and behaves Docker-like.</div><= div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br = clear=3D"none"></div><div>and Bastille!</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote s= tyle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pad= ding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;fo= nt-size:13px"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div></div></div></block= quote></div></div> </blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><br clear=3D"none"><span>-- </span><br= clear=3D"none"><div dir=3D"ltr">Mario.<br clear=3D"none"></div> </blockquote></div> </blockquote></div></div><br clear=3D"all"><br clear=3D"none"><span>-- </sp= an><br clear=3D"none"><div dir=3D"ltr">Mario.<br clear=3D"none"></div> </div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D= "margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-le= ft:1ex"><div><div id=3D"m_-5875881122993762075m_7181173859103459207ydpa1dd3= db9yahoo_quoted_1475940968"><div style=3D"font-family:"Helvetica Neue&= quot;,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:rgb(38,40,42)"><div><= div id=3D"m_-5875881122993762075m_7181173859103459207ydpa1dd3db9yiv64275332= 93"></div></div> </div> </div></div></blockquote></div></div> --0000000000006c616605f9855268--
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